Congratulations, Barry

[Ozzy]

Originally Posted by Daddycool

Lamont is just doing this to get a rise out of all of us because nobody could be that blantantly ignorant.

Have you seen some of the people who post here?

[Ozzy]

I found this while searching my Barry 'dogshit" posts.


http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showth...barry#post8575

Originally Posted by Ozzy on 04-19-2001

btw..... anyone else besides me think barry bonds *shouldn't* be in the hall of fame?

[paulbunyon]

Originally Posted by argleby

All right, Paul, I'll take your word for it and lay off. Btw, I've read and respected your posts as well.

However, what daddycool wrote in the post following yours is true - Lamont started this thread just to get a rise out of people (i.e. baseball fans). He shouldn't start whining just because it worked.

Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.

[Psychosis]

Originally Posted by paulbunyon

Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.

In other words he has the mentality of a 12 year old?

[Ozzy]

Devil's advocate my ass...


You didn't read the racist political bile I deleted.



DaveNJ is the resident 'devil's advocate' of UG.

[Daddycool]

Originally Posted by paulbunyon

Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.

I think what people get so upset about besides the fact he is cheating his way to the home run record is that if left well enough alone, he would have hit over 500 homeruns or maybe close to 600, but he wanted the record. He was also an 8 time all-star, gold glove winner etc. He HAD accolades already and probably would have been in the HOF before he started juicing, but all that wasn't enough for him. Plus the fact that he is one of the bigger assholes the game has seen if not the biggest.

Why do you think people are not making a big deal out of Giambi anymore, one he is not in the record race ,but he apologozed and he IS a nice guy. Its hard to be mad at a nice guy, who is nice to the fans.

[FrankM61962]

Originally Posted by argleby

It's amazing how you still don't get it. Bonds cheated. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as players like Aaron, Ruth or Maris.

He deserves to be thrown out of the game.

If every player who ever used a substance that may have enhanced his ability to play the game of baseball (all cheaters, right?) was thrown out of major league baseball, there wouldn't be many players left..hitters AND pitchers alike...Bonds is bearing the brunt of this b/c he's high profile and is nearing the hallowed records of baseball...get over it and let's get on with the game!

[Ozzy]

It's said that upwards of 80-90% of baseball players in the 60's, 70's and 80's used amphetamines (known as "greenies" around the league) on a daily basis. I read an interview with Tony Gwynn a year or two back where he pretty much acknowledged this though he said the numbers were probably closer to 50% these days. There was also an HBO special on this issue around the same time as Gwynns interview.

So it is safe to say that a vast majority have used something to pick them up in the dog days of summer when 'days off' are far and few between.

Interesting that MLB had flatly refused all govt and private efforts to instill an amphetamine testing policy.

[Ozzy]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...3/SP160366.DTL

Gwynn targets amphetamines
Estimates half of position players use 'greenies'


Jose Canseco came first. Then Ken Caminiti and David Wells. Now comes Tony Gwynn, the latest player/ex-player to go public about rampant drug use in major-league baseball.

Gwynn, considered an exemplary citizen and future Hall of Famer, adds much credibility to the list. But unlike the others, who focused mostly on widespread steroid use, Gwynn addressed amphetamines and estimated that 50 percent of position players regularly use "greenies."

"People might think there is a steroid problem in baseball, but it's nowhere near the other problem; the other, it's a rampant problem," Gwynn was quoted as saying in Tuesday's New York Times.

"Guys feel like steroids are cheating and greenies aren't."

Greenies -- capsules that provide a pick-me-up while potentially increasing heart rates, blood pressure and respiration to unsafe levels -- have been in major-league clubhouses for decades. Pete Rose admitted using them in a 1979 Playboy interview. Recent use, however, has been overshadowed by the steroid craze and baseball's new steroid-testing program.

"Sooner or later," Gwynn said, "it's going to get out that there's a greenie problem, and it's a huge one."

The Times also reported that some players are at odds with their union for approving a soft steroid-testing plan that has little or no consequences for players using artificial muscle enhancers.

The comments from Gwynn, an eight-time batting champion with the Padres who succeeded despite being portly -- as opposed to the common chiseled frames of today -- struck a nerve in a baseball community that too often ignores players using dangerous drugs.

"I have a son who plays baseball," said Giants manager Felipe Alou, father of Cubs outfielder Moises Alou, "and I hope he's not one of the 50 percent. To me, it's not an issue, but I have to say that if a player of stature knows a thing like that is going on, he should speak up a little more."

Giants shortstop Rich Aurilia said of Gwynn's claim: "It's hard to make judgments in percentages. What right would I have to make a judgment on 29 other teams and the number of people doing one thing or another when I'm not around 29 other teams? Maybe that was the sense Tony got with the team he was with."

Outfielder Marvin Benard was more direct, saying, "That's a damn shame, guys coming out after they retire saying stuff. I've got a lot of respect for Tony, but why didn't he say what he said when he was playing?"

Oakland's Eric Chavez has known Gwynn for several years, having attended high school in San Diego County, but doesn't appreciate Gwynn's sudden candidness.

"It's funny how these guys leave the game and then say something that ticks me off," Chavez said. "If you want to say something, say it when you're playing. And these (estimated) numbers . . . how do you know, really?"

One veteran player interviewed by The Chronicle said he thinks greenie use in the majors exceeds 50 percent. He also explained how they're used.

"A half-hour before a game, a guy can take it with a little coffee," the player said. "In the old days, a guy would take it if he's tired. Now it's an everyday thing, to get ready for the game.

"Mostly, hitters take it. It's tough to pitch on the bean, but guys do it, mostly relievers. They have to wait around.

"Guys get introduced to it over the counter. Then they're hooked. They need something stronger. Then they turn to greenies. It's a typical drug habit."

Under the new labor agreement, testing for amphetamines is not mandatory.

"When I was in college, I took Supac, which is like Exedrine, I think, and I think it has ephedra or something in it, to kind of get me up," A's pitcher Barry Zito said. "Now I don't need a boost because there's enough intensity, but for an everyday player, I can imagine they might need something. I've never seen any adverse effects, and if you take legal supplements to do it, that should be OK. Everyone needs their little fix."

[Daddycool]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

It's said that upwards of 80-90% of baseball players in the 60's, 70's and 80's used amphetamines (known as "greenies" around the league) on a daily basis. I read an interview with Tony Gwynn a year or two back where he pretty much acknowledged this though he said the numbers were probably closer to 50% these days. There was also an HBO special on this issue around the same time as Gwynns interview.

So it is safe to say that a vast majority have used something to pick them up in the dog days of summer when 'days off' are far and few between.

Interesting that MLB had flatly refused all govt and private efforts to instill an amphetamine testing policy.

Big Ditto. Amphetamines are the bigger problem. Although I would argue and some will disagree, that with Amphetamines they help a player differently than steroids do. If a player is tired and at 85%, he pops a greenie and he is back to 100%. But at 100% he is still the same player. If he hit the ball 380 feet before at 100%, after popping a greenie and getting back to 100% he is still going to hit the ball 380 feet because that is his maximuim potential. Not like steroids where you get to be a differnet player over what your 100% maximuim potential.

[Lascivious]

What this country want from its star athletes, actors, etc...when they screw up is a mea culpa and then we forgive and love them again. We like it when they show they're human. NObody's perfect and we understand that. We all know why Bonds took the roids but he's insulting the public when he denies it and then lashes out like he's the good guy. I remembered everybody though Hugh Grant's career was over with the Divine Brown scandal. We know why he went to a ho when he had a young hot Liz Hurley waiting in bed for him. It's cause he's freaking man. He went on Leno, apologized, mocked himself, and the story faded away. If he came out and said I fucked up. I took the roids after watching bums like Sosa and Big MAc get the pub while a hall of famer like me got no respect, we all could respect that. I still remember that gold medal gymnast Paul Hamm controversy with the scoring. If he said, you know what, he deserves the gold mesdal and gave his medal away, they would have let him keep his medal and he would have been a national hero with major endorsements including his picture on the almighty wheaties box. Instead he got nada but bad press. When the Golden Globes come up, people still reference VInce Rhames giving up his award to JAck Lemon and crying about it. We eat this crap up. THat's why we hate BOnds! Show some humility and genuine remorse and we'll love ya. Sorry about the off topic ramblings. Still pondering about the multi-pop 1/2 hr deal that I can't get from the East Elmhurst Chicas because she's not accepting new clients. Screw BOnds!

[FrankM61962]

Originally Posted by Lascivious

Sorry about the off topic ramblings. Still pondering about the multi-pop 1/2 hr deal that I can't get from the East Elmhurst Chicas because she's not accepting new clients. Screw BOnds!

right on, five yrs from now noone is gonna remember Bonds or all this controversy...but we're still gonna be talking up pussy...hopefully by then you'll be able to get access to V's EE house..lol.

[paulbunyon]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

Devil's advocate my ass...


You didn't read the racist political bile I deleted.



DaveNJ is the resident 'devil's advocate' of UG.

No I must have missed that Oz.
DaveNJ? Who's that? : )

[lamont5123]

Argleby,

I'll respond to you. Just don't name call.

I demand the same respect that I show others.

Okay, why would anyone support Bonds?

Well, for one thing, he has never failed a drug test.

Second, there is no proof he broke any law or any rule.

Third, most people don't like him and therefore, I am going to come to his defense.

Sure, he is no Mr. Congeniality, but neither was Ty Cobbs.

Bonds is a fantastic hitter.

Steroids did not bestow that gift on him.

[lamont5123]

PaulBunyon,

I thank you, my man.

[argleby]

Originally Posted by lamont5123

Argleby,

I'll respond to you. Just don't name call.

I demand the same respect that I show others.

Okay, why would anyone support Bonds?

Well, for one thing, he has never failed a drug test.

Second, there is no proof he broke any law or any rule.

There is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that he used both steroids and HGH, as you'd know if you'd read the article I linked to earlier in this thread. Here it is again: http://www.ergogenics.org/299.html

Third, most people don't like him and therefore, I am going to come to his defense.

Why would you want to come to someone's defense just because they're not liked? If you read the article I linked to you'll see that Barry Bonds is not liked for very good reasons - he's a cheater, a liar and an asshole.

Sure, he is no Mr. Congeniality, but neither was Ty Cobbs.

Bonds is a fantastic hitter.

Steroids did not bestow that gift on him.

Bonds would not be a fantastic hitter today without the help of performance enhancing drugs. Like every player, his skills would have deteriorated with age, not improved.

When Barry's father, Bobby Bonds, was 35 he hit .215 and was out of baseball the next year. At the age of 35, Barry began the five best seasons of his career, maybe anyone's career.

That's because he cheated. Why you would want to support or congratulate such a person is beyond me.

[lamont5123]

Argleby,

I believe that I have to right to believe what I do and think the way I do.

I do not condemn others for their beliefs.

Unless those beliefs entail the hatred of others based on race, color or creed or superiority over same.

If you don't like Bonds, so be it.

If I believe someone is being unfairly targeted, I defend them. Being a veteran of the Civil Rights Era, I despise the rule of a mob.

[argleby]

Originally Posted by lamont5123

Argleby,

I believe that I have to right to believe what I do and think the way I do.

No one's disputing your right to believe what you want, but what you believe about Barry Bonds is directly contradicted by the facts. Facts which you choose to simply ignore.

You also have the right to believe in flying saucers and that the earth is flat; that doesn't mean those beliefs are valid or should be taken seriously.

I do not condemn others for their beliefs.

Unless those beliefs entail the hatred of others based on race, color or creed or superiority over same.

If you don't like Bonds, so be it.

If I believe someone is being unfairly targeted, I defend them.

Again, read the article I linked to. That Bonds cheated is beyond any reasonable doubt (as is the fact that he committed perjury).

So please explain how Bonds is being unfairly targeted.

Being a veteran of the Civil Rights Era, I despise the rule of a mob.

You seem to be trying to inject some kind of racism angle into the argument. There isn't one. If Bonds breaks Aaron's record there will be even more outrage.

I've made several posts in this thread and you've yet to respond to one point I've made, or answer one question. Simply repeating your apparently inalterable beliefs, blindly ignoring any inconvenient facts, doesn't make for much of a discussion.

[lamont5123]

Argleby,

I'm ignoring your premises because you acted like a child when writing them.

I pay not attention to anyone who name calls.

And I never will.

I am a mature adult and a parent.

I've been on forums all over the place. And I always ignore those who name call, get personal or whose language is more insulting than it is informative.

[Daddycool]

Originally Posted by lamont5123

Argleby,

I'm ignoring your premises because you acted like a child when writing them.

I pay not attention to anyone who name calls.

And I never will.

I am a mature adult and a parent.

I've been on forums all over the place. And I always ignore those who name call, get personal or whose language is more insulting than it is informative.

You cannot respond because you cannot get past the facts. Facts don't lie.

[argleby]

Originally Posted by lamont5123

Argleby,

I'm ignoring your premises because you acted like a child when writing them.

I pay not attention to anyone who name calls.

And I never will.

Just a few posts ago you wrote: "Argleby, I will respond to you. Just don't name call.""

So I didn't name call. And now you've found another reason to duck?

I am a mature adult

Well, you're not enough of a mature adult to admit you're wrong.

[lamont5123]

argleby,

The facts are these:

Barry Bonds has never failed a MLB administered drug test.

He has never been convicted of a crime.

Those are facts.

What you spout are someone's opinions.

Show me proof Barry failed a drug test that delivers inconclusive proof that Barry used substances banned by MLB.

Until you do, you're just like all the others, screaming into the wind.

[argleby]

Originally Posted by lamont5123

argleby,

The facts are these:

Barry Bonds has never failed a MLB administered drug test.

He has never been convicted of a crime.

Those are facts.

Lamont,

Those facts are accurate. Here are some other facts:

There is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that Bonds took both steroids and HGH. Did you read the article I linked to? Here it is again: http://www.ergogenics.org/299.html

There are eyewitnesses, written records of his drug use and, for God's sake, he admitted it to the grand jury in San Francisco (with the incredibly lame excuse that he took them unknowingly; see http://www.cincypost.com/2004/12/03/base12-03-2004.html or http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/arc...sed_steroids/).

I should also mention that even without any of the above, it's blindingly obvious to anyone with any common sense at all.

Again, my question is why do continue to support a flagrant and unrepentant cheater?

What you spout are someone's opinions.

That he took performance enhancing drugs isn't an opinion, it is a fact. There are eyewitnesses, written records and he has admitted it. Read the links I've posted.

Show me proof Barry failed a drug test that delivers inconclusive proof that Barry used substances banned by MLB.

I assume you meant conclusive, not inconclusive? Again, read the article.

Until you do, you're just like all the others, screaming into the wind.

You seem to have decided that you're going to believe what you believe no matter what the facts are. How open-minded.

That being said, if I'm ever caught red-handed murdering someone, I hope you're on my jury.

[Ozzy]

Bonds wants protection from feds if he talks

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Barry Bonds wants to cooperate with special investigator George Mitchell, but will only talk to him if he is assured the information won't be given to federal prosecutors.

Bonds also dropped his lawsuit against two San Francisco Chronicle reporters who published a book claiming the Giants slugger used steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs.
Mitchell was appointed by commissioner Bud Selig to head the probe into steroids in baseball.

"I'd like Barry to cooperate with Sen. Mitchell," Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, told the Daily News in New York. "We believe Sen. Mitchell will be fair, thorough and impartial. But here's the problem: Anything that happens there can become fodder for the federal government and for another book that will make reporters rich."

A federal grand jury in San Francisco is now investigating whether Bonds lied under oath about using the performance-enhancing drug known as "the clear" during that grand jury testimony.

Meanwhile, Bonds requested that San Francisco County Superior Court dismiss the lawsuit June 2, according to court records reviewed by the San Jose Mercury News. The suit was dismissed without prejudice, meaning he retains the right to refile it.

In March, Bonds sued Chronicle reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, publisher Gotham books, the Chronicle and Sports Illustrated, which published an excerpt of the book, "Game of Shadows."

Bonds' lawyers, suing under California's unfair competition law, argued that the authors should be blocked from making money on the book because it used illegally obtained grand jury testimony.

Transcripts of the testimony were leaked from a federal investigation into the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, or BALCO, where Bonds and several other major league players allegedly obtained performance-enhancing drugs.

During a March hearing, Bonds' lawyers unsuccessfully sought a temporary restraining order on all profits from the book. At the time, Judge James Warren said he thought the lawsuit had little chance of success and the authors had raised "serious first amendment issues."


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5684188