When you disconnect the exchange of cash and sex

[jyris]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

...There was never an intent for me to screw the girl out of 120, just as I am sure there was no intent for the girl to screw me out of 600. It just happened...

You said that your examples were not in chronological order, but I'm wondering whether #1 came before #3. Maybe there was some kind of overcompensation going on here, where you cut #3 more slack than you otherwise would have had you not (inadvertently) stiffed #1. Maybe #3 was your penance on some level, if you don't mind the term.

[TheRealStory]

All three of the craiglist girls came after the initial incident with the pro I posted about.

I think people are getting hung up on the specific facts. I didn't talk about me stiffing the hooker for any other reason than to bring up what can happen when payment gets disconnected from the act.

I'm the exact type of guy that never shorts anyone, doesn't play games, and is true to my word when dealing financially with these women.

I think what I'm trying to illustrate is the complexity of feelings people have around P4P encounters. Meaning that I have no issue handing over money for sex. And I clearly have no issue advancing a non pro or sugarbaby money if I think it is in my advantage to do so and collectibility is reasonably ensured based on a pattern of trust. But I obviously didn't want to make good with the pro even though it was the right thing to do.

Is it because she was a pro? Probably. Would I have done the same to a cl girl? Probably not. Why does that make a difference? Not because I don't respect pros, but maybe because there isn't the personal connection and it is business?

If the situation came up again, I'm sure I'd make good with the pro because it is the right thing to do but I'd probably do it grudgingly. Whereas with a longer term cl relationship I wouldn't think twice about making good. It would be automatic.

[TheRealStory]

who drives back to a drive through when they are given an extra 20 in change? Or goes back to the store? Or if you made a cash withdrawl at a bank and the teller gives you too much money? If you notice it on the spot, most people would fix it right there, but the longer it takes you to figure it out and the more of a headache it is to make it right diminishes the likelihood. Human nature.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

who drives back to a drive through when they are given an extra 20 in change? Or goes back to the store? Or if you made a cash withdrawl at a bank and the teller gives you too much money? If you notice it on the spot, most people would fix it right there, but the longer it takes you to figure it out and the more of a headache it is to make it right diminishes the likelihood. Human nature.

Those are good analogies, but the difference in these cases is that there is a personal connection going on. It isnt strictly business anymore no matter how hard both parties try to keep it that way. Once the 'relationship' gets going the obligation to immediately pay for each and every sex act starts to seem out of place. It becomes more like a situation where you owe a close friend money. Most of the time you pay, but not always and certainly not always immediately.

[TheRealStory]

But that's the point I'm trying to make. The CL girl becomes a close friend. The pro is just a business "partner?" Or associate. Even if the same rules theoretically apply they don't feel the same.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

But that's the point I'm trying to make. The CL girl becomes a close friend. The pro is just a business "partner?" Or associate. Even if the same rules theoretically apply they don't feel the same.

I'm trying to delve a little into why that happens. I say it's out of a need to morph things into a GFE and a NP4P one at that. When that happens, the girl might be able to go along with it up to a point, but when it gets beyond some personal limit (each one has different limits) they get spooked and they bail on you.

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by Axe

I'm trying to delve a little into why that happens. I say it's out of a need to morph things into a GFE and a NP4P one at that. When that happens, the girl might be able to go along with it up to a point, but when it gets beyond some personal limit (each one has different limits) they get spooked and they bail on you.

Ok. I see what you mean. I never intended for these types of relationships to morph, but once I had one morph like that on me, I really liked it. A little dangerous for a married guy to be sure, but when they morph they are very real and the highs are very high (the lows are also very low), so they are not completely stress free for either party.

Girl 1 I had to let go, partially because I could see it getting to much for her. Girl 2 bailed because she couldn't handle it (I'm convinced she was in love with me). Girl 3 was kind of a CL semi-pro (I'm sure that there are some UG members that would know of her) that just liked me more than most of her other "clients" and was far better at compartmentalizing things. There were no "feelings" with her, other than fucking and friendship. I still have no idea why she bailed.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

Girl 3 was kind of a CL semi-pro (I'm sure that there are some UG members that would know of her) that just liked me more than most of her other "clients" and was far better at compartmentalizing things. There were no "feelings" with her, other than fucking and friendship. I still have no idea why she bailed.

Gee, what a surprise that this is the one who 'just happened' to book on you while she was ahead $600. (lol)

I give women credit for being able to size men up faster and more accurately then men can do with women. They just pick up on subtle things better. A pro (any kind) might quickly see you as someone who wants to drift (deliberately or not) into the Zone and will also be the one most likely to both avoid it like the plague and find some way to take advantage of it...but, I'm just rambling now...

[Thorn]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

But that's the point I'm trying to make. The CL girl becomes a close friend. The pro is just a business "partner?" Or associate. Even if the same rules theoretically apply they don't feel the same.

Wrong examples, I think.

I go back no matter how long its been since the point where I find out. Though the few times it has happened it was immediately. The reason why is specific. It totally comes down to the ability to put yourself into someone else's place. Their shoes as it were.

I know, in those scenarios, that it is very likely someone is going to pay and that I have the ability, in those scenarios, to mitigate that potential strife. It is totally in my hands.

The rest is easy. I ask what I would want that person to do in similar circumstances if it were me on the chopping block. Then I act accordingly.

Its doing the fair thing.

[Thorn]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

I think people are getting hung up on the specific facts.

I am not sure if you meant it to sound that way, but if one were to get hung up on anything what better then to get hung up over than the specific facts?

[Thorn]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

But that's the point I'm trying to make. The CL girl becomes a close friend. The pro is just a business "partner?" Or associate. Even if the same rules theoretically apply they don't feel the same.

There are at least two people here who know precisely what you mean.

They both deal almost exclusively with sex workers who do not perform FS functions but who, in their cases and for what ever reasons, move from the sex work they do into FS relationships. The potential for grey area mishaps is extraordinarily high because, right from the start, they are doing things they don't do with all of their clients.

I refer to "dating" strippers outside of their club environments.

I am sure jl would agree with me that making sure there is money directly implanted as a firewall has helped us both keep the water from becoming too muddy. It defines the relationship as one that is P4p-quid pro quo. No matter how much the other facets of what is going on takes on the demeanor of an actual romantic relationship. [no set time limits, time involved that has to do nothing with actual sex, romantic settings - dinners, talk about personal lives, etc]

[OrangeAid]

Originally Posted by Thorn

making sure there is money directly implanted as a firewall

Not sure if you had this in mind when you chose the phrase "directly implanted", but I'm starting to think that the way the finances are handled may have a bearing on things as well. Interesting that with both Girl #1 and Girl #2 things evolved from a direct exchange to paying off credit cards and other forms of financial support that seem less like a quid pro quo.

In my most recent Grey Zone experience things started off with a direct exchange each visit, then morphed into a monthly allowance with no set expectation of how much time would be spent together, and eventually evolved to the point where I was depositing the allowance directly into her checking account (so there was no visible exchange between us). The firewall can get a little weak in a situation like that.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

Not sure if you had this in mind when you chose the phrase "directly implanted", but I'm starting to think that the way the finances are handled may have a bearing on things as well. Interesting that with both Girl #1 and Girl #2 things evolved from a direct exchange to paying off credit cards and other forms of financial support that seem less like a quid pro quo.

The way finances are handled is a large part of it. That's one of the things that can made it grey! If the payments stop but the service continues that isnt grey anymore. That's dating.

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

In my most recent Grey Zone experience things started off with a direct exchange each visit, then morphed into a monthly allowance with no set expectation of how much time would be spent together, and eventually evolved to the point where I was depositing the allowance directly into her checking account (so there was no visible exchange between us). The firewall can get a little weak in a situation like that.

It's my own prejudice, but in the handfull of times I've got to this point I never felt I was getting the most bang for my buck. I find they tend to slack in this kind of arrangement. It's more Sugardaddy than grey, IMHO.

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by Thorn

Wrong examples, I think.

I go back no matter how long its been since the point where I find out. Though the few times it has happened it was immediately. The reason why is specific. It totally comes down to the ability to put yourself into someone else's place. Their shoes as it were.

I know, in those scenarios, that it is very likely someone is going to pay and that I have the ability, in those scenarios, to mitigate that potential strife. It is totally in my hands.

The rest is easy. I ask what I would want that person to do in similar circumstances if it were me on the chopping block. Then I act accordingly.

Its doing the fair thing.

You are explaining it to me as if I don't think I did something wrong and I'm happy about it. It still bothers me, and if there was a way I could make it up to her I would. Not that it means anything, as it is an inconsequential amount of money. I have never felt good about it, nor have I felt that "I got away" with something. The amount of time I spent thinking about it (not from the real consequences but rather what it says about me as a person, as I see myself as a "character" guy) far outweighs the money at hand.

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by Thorn

I am not sure if you meant it to sound that way, but if one were to get hung up on anything what better then to get hung up over than the specific facts?

Because I'm not posting to look for advice. I'm also not posting to have people decide whether I'm a good person or not. I'm posting to explain some of the oddities / experiences I've had throughout the course of my hobbying career in some sort of instructive / thoughtful manner to enrich the discourse (hopefully) at UG.

This isn't to discuss what I should have done, or what someone else would have done in my shoes. The relevant question (to me) is why would I do something like I did. And why do these girls do what they do. And what are the relevant factors.

Does that make sense?

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by Axe

It's my own prejudice, but in the handfull of times I've got to this point I never felt I was getting the most bang for my buck. I find they tend to slack in this kind of arrangement. It's more Sugardaddy than grey, IMHO.

Depends on the individual situation. I've felt that it has worked both to my benefit and detriment. But I think that the Sugardaddy discussion is a separate topic and definitely deserves some discussion.

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

Not sure if you had this in mind when you chose the phrase "directly implanted", but I'm starting to think that the way the finances are handled may have a bearing on things as well. Interesting that with both Girl #1 and Girl #2 things evolved from a direct exchange to paying off credit cards and other forms of financial support that seem less like a quid pro quo.

Some additional facts.

With girl 1, during the first phase of our relationship we were able to meet at her place, so the only expense I had was her "fee". She had a change of employment, and a change in living situations with her roommate (who broke up with her boyfriend and was around a lot more), so her "hosting" became nearly impossible. We started to see each other less, because getting a room can be fairly costly in NYC, and she isn't the type of girl that would meet in a short-stay joint. She thought something was wrong, and I explained the economics. I was spending just as much, but seeing her less. And it was clear to this point that it wasn't only about the money. So I tried to get to the root of her "needs", and we came up with the CC payment idea. So she got "less" money each month, but we got to see each other at nearly the same rate and I spent about the same.

With girl 2, she was always uncomfortable with the idea of receiving cash for sex. I spent nearly 2 years with her (off and on due to travel and her flakiness), and only handed her cash 3 times. I think in some way she always treated me like a boyfriend to some extent. Outside of the first two meetings, I don't think it was ever quid pro quo with her.

[10538]

Originally Posted by Thorn

I am sure NP would agree with me that making sure there is money directly implanted as a firewall has helped us both keep the water from becoming too muddy. It defines the relationship as one that is P4p-quid pro quo. No matter how much the other facets of what is going on takes on the demeanor of an actual romantic relationship. [no set time limits, time involved that has to do nothing with actual sex, romantic settings - dinners, talk about personal lives, etc]

I couldn't agree more. Indeed, this is the holy grail for me: having a relationship without set time limits and time involved that has nothing to do with actual sex, but for which there is always payment as a necessary firewall. Haven't figured out how to get there, though.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by 10538

I couldn't agree more. Indeed, this is the holy grail for me: having a relationship without set time limits and time involved that has nothing to do with actual sex, but for which there is always payment as a necessary firewall. Haven't figured out how to get there, though.

That's a Sugardaddy or something very close to it.

I'm starting to see why some people view that as a relationship that doesnt involve sex at all. A while back in conversations with some strippers I know (all providers) almost all of them defined it that way.

[OrangeAid]

Originally Posted by Axe

It's my own prejudice, but in the handfull of times I've got to this point I never felt I was getting the most bang for my buck. I find they tend to slack in this kind of arrangement. It's more Sugardaddy than grey, IMHO.

Not sure I grasp the distinction between sugardaddy and grey, but as TheRealStory suggested that may be a topic for another thread.

What I am interested in here is trying to isolate some of the things that cause an arrangement that starts out black and white to eventually morph into the Grey Zone. I think there are several potential factors that may steer things in that direction:

1. Frequent overnights (because when you start to behave like a dating couple your brain has a tendency to get mixed up and start thinking you are a dating couple).

2. Trips (same reason as above).

3. Gifts (same reason as above).

4. "Indirect" financial arrangements (as discussed previously in this thread).

5. And, of course, one or more people who may be susceptible to losing perspective and letting things evolve towards "grey" (or maybe even prefer to have things move in that direction).

When I look at arrangements I've been in that remained black and white and others that drifted toward grey, these seem to be some of the factors that differentiate between those relationships.

[justlooking]

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

In my most recent Grey Zone experience things started off with a direct exchange each visit, then morphed into a monthly allowance with no set expectation of how much time would be spent together, and eventually evolved to the point where I was depositing the allowance directly into her checking account (so there was no visible exchange between us). The firewall can get a little weak in a situation like that.

Which I have to say is one reason I've so far always resisted going that way, even though girls bring it up all the time.

I always (disingenuously) tell them it's for their benefit: if we keep it strictly fee-per-visit, they never have to see me any time they don't want to, and can cut off our "relationship" at any time.

But of course, it isn't really for their benefit. It's for my benefit. It keeps things clean.

[justlooking]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

With girl 2, she was always uncomfortable with the idea of receiving cash for sex. I spent nearly 2 years with her (off and on due to travel and her flakiness), and only handed her cash 3 times. I think in some way she always treated me like a boyfriend to some extent. Outside of the first two meetings, I don't think it was ever quid pro quo with her.

There's an art to slipping money into their purses or wherever so they don't have experience your handing it to them.

[justlooking]

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

Not sure I grasp the distinction between sugardaddy and grey, but as TheRealStory suggested that may be a topic for another thread.

What I am interested in here is trying to isolate some of the things that cause an arrangement that starts out black and white to eventually morph into the Grey Zone. I think there are several potential factors that may steer things in that direction:

1. Frequent overnights (because when you start to behave like a dating couple your brain has a tendency to get mixed up and start thinking you are a dating couple).

2. Trips (same reason as above).

3. Gifts (same reason as above).

4. "Indirect" financial arrangements (as discussed previously in this thread).

5. And, of course, one or more people who may be susceptible to losing perspective and letting things evolve towards "grey" (or maybe even prefer to have things move in that direction).

When I look at arrangements I've been in that remained black and white and others that drifted toward grey, these seem to be some of the factors that differentiate between those relationships.

I don't think it has to be that complicated. I think it's when you spend as much or more time together not having sex as you do having sex.

(For me, I pay these girls the same $400 or $500 no matter how much time we spend together. To me, it's a payment for the sex. So the two, three, four, five, or six hours we might spend together outside the bedroom -- as well as time we might spend together completely without payment, because we have no sex in those meetings -- is, well, not strictly commercial.)

[10538]

Originally Posted by Axe

That's a Sugardaddy or something very close to it.

Maybe a SugarUncle. I say that because I always imagined that a SugarDaddy was more like a paying boyfriend -- in other words exclusive. I inferred that because the first provider I ever saw retired because she got a sugardaddy and she saw him exclusively, though still P4P. A person can have multiple uncles but only one daddy. What I am envisioning is totally non-exclusive but just involves more time out of the bedroom (with only a minimal extra charge). Like when my ATF says that if we go on a "date" (i.e., dinner, a movie and dessert) that she'll only charge for the dessert part (though obviously I have to pay for the dinner and movie).

[TheRealStory]

Originally Posted by justlooking

There's an art to slipping money into their purses or wherever so they don't have experience your handing it to them.

This is how it started. As I mentioned, the first two times I saw her I gave her the cash directly. Then about 3 weeks later, I was home (not home, but back in NY) and she called me. Crying. She was over her CC limit and needed me to send a payment. I did. But I wasn't there to collect on it. So we talked about it, and we agreed that I'd start making payments on her CC so as to give her some breathing room. She came out to NY for Christmas to visit relatives and I spent two nights with her and didn't pay her, because I'd already advanced money to her CC. As it turns out, I got more sex than I would have if I had paid her, and I offered her the difference. She said "keep paying my cc, and if one of us gets too far ahead of the other we will figure it out". And so for $250/month or something like that I got access to her whenever I was in her town. But I also took her for nice dinners, occasionally bought her something, went to the movies with her, like a real bf. Just one that had a wife back at home.

This one was unique, because she came to CL for a specific reason in a time of desparation and ended up meeting a very (in her words) nice guy. Pure luck on her part, and to my advantage as well. She wasn't looking for ongoing support, so as I was cleaning up her issue, I took her "stress" away and that was all that mattered.

This process helped me lead girl 1 down the same path as girl 2, as I've found that by specifically identifying and helping out with the "need" that exists, you can get yourself a better deal BUT also make the girl happier. It really doesn't make any sense that a girl can be happier with you paying $600/month to their CC instead of giving them $1200 cash for 3 meetings a month, but in the "real" world of non-pro girls, this is quite possible. Some might say it is the holy grail, but it isn't without its pitfalls either.

Which brings me to girl 4, who I will write about next.

[OrangeAid]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

It really doesn't make any sense that a girl can be happier with you paying $600/month to their CC instead of giving them $1200 cash for 3 meetings a month, but in the "real" world of non-pro girls, this is quite possible.

I actually had a girl suggest (with absolutely no prompting from me) that it would be better if I didn't give her something every time we met because (in her approximate words) she "likes spending time with me and doesn't need to be paid to do it, and that would make it seem less like a quid pro quo". So I increased the amount nominally (10% - 20%) and started leaving an envelope for her every other time we met instead of everytime. She was completely satisfied with this arrangement - it went on for at least a year and a half, and although we are no longer seeing each other (she got married) we are still friendly to this day.

I agree with JL's statement that staying away from this kind of arrangement keeps things clean, but from a value perspective it is hard to walk away from opportunities like this.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by OrangeAid

Not sure I grasp the distinction between sugardaddy and grey, but as TheRealStory suggested that may be a topic for another thread.

I suppose they can overlap but since I've never been a Sugardaddy, we're getting beyond my experience. In general, a Sugardaddy is too well-defined to be grey. Like I said before, the Grey Zone is when you're in a P4P, but you both get very good at pretending you're not. This can include periods when the payments stop but the service continues...to be followed by a return to paying a la carte, then back to not paying with no change in service/attitude again. Cant get much grey-er than that.

The 5 items in your list were very good, btw.

[Thorn]

Originally Posted by TheRealStory

Because I'm not posting to look for advice. I'm also not posting to have people decide whether I'm a good person or not. I'm posting to explain some of the oddities / experiences I've had throughout the course of my hobbying career in some sort of instructive / thoughtful manner to enrich the discourse (hopefully) at UG.

This isn't to discuss what I should have done, or what someone else would have done in my shoes. The relevant question (to me) is why would I do something like I did. And why do these girls do what they do. And what are the relevant factors.

OK.

Does that make sense?

Sure. Understand though that when you post on open forums like this why you did it can become immaterial. People are going to pick it up and use it for what they wish because you've inserted your comments into a public domain.

Believe me, I've had posts I put into different forums that I considered insightful and complete, with no further need for commentary or enhancement. Others thought differently. Sometimes I could truly appreciate what they did with it I hadn't thought of. Other times, not so much. Either way it matter not one wit what I thought about it in the end as folks did with it what they will regardless of what I thought about it.

[TheRealStory]

I do hope that people that bother to read my section are enlightened enough to engage in spirited conversation without the usual whoreboard antics.

[Judge Parker]

I've been seeing lady a long time, several years, who tells me she is now retired from this field. But since she really likes me ;-) , she wants to continue seeing me exclusively while she pursues school, a civilian job, whatever. Actually, I believe she is telling me the truth, but I do not flatter myself too much.

Of course, she still needs help with her tuition, so she needs me to make gifts from time to time. We're discussing something more of an "monthly allowance" situation to disconnect the money from the time together.

Just picking up from one the posts above, this came about after we made several multi-day trips together, and spent more and more time together as real people.

She has even used the "L" word. I am not at all confused, and definitely not in love, but it does look like this could have possibilities. But I worry that at some point, it becomes more of a traditional relationship, and the "allowance" idea makes things murkier when it is time to leave.

I guess my point here is this blurring of the lines is probably a much more common situation that you might otherwise think.