Performace milestones for automatic BB HoF induction?

[pudgy.in.the.middle]

This is a spin off from the Petitte thread, but I am curious to know what your opinions on performance milestones for automatic Baseball HoF induction in this current era. Does 500 HRs, 3000 hits. 300 wins, 500 saves, 3000 strikeouts or 1000 steals make a player an automatic HoFer? Sorry for not making a poll, I'm a dumb guy using a smartphone. For me, HRs need to be upped for obvious reasons. Maybe the other batting stats too since hitters careers have been longer thanks to the DH position and legal and illegal performance enhancers.

[Ozzy]

With 20 million dollar a year salaries everything is numbers driven today. That's why a good relief pitcher who can and should pitch 2-3 innings like the old days of Rollie Fingers and Rich Gossage (the original super star revilers), but today a manager brings in a couple of stiffs and sweats out the 7th and 8th innings while a Rivera sits in the pen because two inning games means he can't make 75-80 appearances and get 50 saves. Instead he pitches 50 games and gets 30-35 saves. A 30 save relief pitcher can't negotiate like a 45-50 save one can. It's the exact reason that Bonds started on roids... cause he saw Sosa and Mac hitting 66 and 73 and signing bigger deals and getting more endorsements than him.

For that reason there's too much corruption and shenanigans going on to set milestones for auto entry in the HoF. 300 wins and 3000 k's are still good numbers especially considering starters are rarely allowed to pitched into the late innings anymore. The top starters today get maybe 2 complete games a year compared to 6-12 in the Rollie Fingers days. Saves is a stat easily inflated so I wouldn't even set a milestone for that. Same for HR's until anyone with bloated steroid numbers is a thing of the past.

Longevity and modern medicine improved health is a big factor with todays inflated numbers too. You rarely saw players starting getting 600+ at bats or playing 20+ productive years. And aside from medicine, steroids played a major factor here (note Clemens/Bonds).

Anyway... I wouldn't put anyone in today based on numbers. Call it the Phil Neikro/Gaylord Perry rule.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

...that I was actually going to state in the Pettitte thread. While I do not think there are statistical milestones that should gain "automatic" entry. There should be certain minimums set JUST to be "considered". There should be a list of tangible standards.

[lightweight]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

With 20 million dollar a year salaries everything is numbers driven today. That's why a good relief pitcher who can and should pitch 2-3 innings like the old days of Rollie Fingers and Rich Gossage (the original super star revilersLongevity and modern medicine improved health is a big factor with todays inflated numbers too. You rarely saw players starting getting 600+ at bats or playing 20+ productive years. And aside from medicine, steroids played a major factor here (note Clemens/Bonds).

Anyway... I wouldn't put anyone in today based on numbers. Call it the Phil Neikro/Gaylord Perry rule.

Goose Gossage, Ozzy, substitute the word good for great.... He is in the HOF. He got in in 2008, but why did it take so long? I agree that Goose was as good if not better than just about any reliever ever.. Except Mariano except Goose was much more intimidating..

[lightweight]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

Longevity and modern medicine improved health is a big factor with todays inflated numbers too. You rarely saw players starting getting 600+ at bats or playing 20+ productive years. And aside from medicine, steroids played a major factor here (note Clemens/Bonds).

So, the longevity thing is interesting because total numbers long term may be impressive, but they were not dominate in any year, they were just consistantly good, which should not get them in. Defense is also over looked, right?

[lightweight]

To add to this thread, if you had a crystal ball, name some players that are playing right now, that you feel with make the HOF... The steroid thing aside, I think. Because obviously Arod is a hall of famer but will he? Because of the steroid thing? Can you put him in without Mcguire, Sosa or Bonds?
Jeter, Pulos. Is Posada a hall of famer? or does he come up short like Pettite? Who had the better career? Just curious. Pretty close I would say... But with Pettites, playoff record, does he get the nod?

[Scott68]

I'm not a sports fan!

This thread is officially spam.

[pudgy.in.the.middle]

Originally Posted by Scott68

I'm not a sports fan!

This thread is officially spam.

Moderator:

Please relocate this post to the "idiots and shitheads" thread

[Scott68]

Originally Posted by pudgy.in.the.middle

Moderator:

Please relocate this post to the "idiots and shitheads" thread

Yes, please.

[LISteve]

Great topic!

300 wins ... especially now ... should be automatic
500 HRS ... NO ... especially now! Fred McGriff has close to 500 HRs and he is NOT a HOF player.
500 saves? That's tough. I look at Trevor Hoffman and here is a guy who blew every big game he was in. Remember 1998 world series. He comes in and San Diego fans go nuts ... Woo Hooo ... here comes the greatest reliever in history!! We Rock!! Hells Bells is blaring over the PA!! What happens ???? Brosius home run!!! I guess Hoffman goes in. How can you not send in a guy with the most saves in baseball history? HOWEVER ... I think he is just a numbers compiler.

3000 hits is automatic I think

The biggest milestone to change is the HRs due to the steroids. But guys that didn't even have rumors about them are going to be hurt as well. I think the power hitters have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

3 MVPs is probably automatic if not 2. However does that mean A-Rod and Bonds go in? Maybe not.

These are interesting times when it comes to HOF voting.

Bonds = NO
Clemens = NO
Sosa = NO
McGwire = NO

I may be forgetting some ... but the blatant abusers are NO

How about Sheffield? Didn't he admit to using the cream? He I am not sure of.

[Il Pagliacco]

Good thread Pudge.

I think we will not see anymore 300 game winners. The pitchers are babied today. Not enough starts. In the future we will look at pitchers with 200-250 in a different light.
I also think that the HR numbers are going to go down because of more ped testing. 500 HR's will be what it was and should be. A tremendous milestone.

[Il Pagliacco]

In regards to the caught ped users, i feel they should all get in. Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod etc., etc. I believe between 70-80% of MLBers were juicing the past 20 years. We are punishing only the ones who got caught. Fuck it. Let them in or ban everyone who played in that era. Who doesn't think Piazza, Alomar, Biggio, just to threw out some names, were not juicing?

[LISteve]

It's incredible how many players have reached 500 HRs recently. It's like it is no big deal any more. How would you feel if you were Reggie Jackson. He was in the top 10 all time and all these juicers passed him making him seem just like any other HR hitter. Not fair. Take Sammy Sosa off the juice and put him in Reggie's era and he finishes his career with 250 HRs.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by Il Pagliacco

In regards to the caught ped users, i feel they should all get in. Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod etc., etc. I believe between 70-80% of MLBers were juicing the past 20 years. We are punishing only the ones who got caught. Fuck it. Let them in or ban everyone who played in that era. Who doesn't think Piazza, Alomar, Biggio, just to threw out some names, were not juicing?

...And funny this was my exact POV in 2003 before we were sure that 70-80% were doing it and people said it was blasphemy to think so. Also how can you hold back the hitters for juicing when the piitchers were too? Everyone acts like it would be soooo complicated or hard to tell which juicers woulda been HOF material anyway(without the juice) or NOT. And that Non-juicers that may have been will not get in. to this I say....BULLSHIT!
ie.
Bonds...Asshole
Arod...pussy and pussywhipped
Clearly HOF material anyway(without the juice)

And they are not stopping Griffey, or Vlad from getting in. So who exactly is Not going to get in that should be?

Rafael Palmeiro..getting the most pussy of the 3 probably
Clearly in the "or NOT" category.

See it's not that hard!

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by LISteve

It's incredible how many players have reached 500 HRs recently. It's like it is no big deal any more. How would you feel if you were Reggie Jackson. He was in the top 10 all time and all these juicers passed him making him seem just like any other HR hitter. Not fair. Take Sammy Sosa off the juice and put him in Reggie's era and he finishes his career with 250 HRs.

..#1 If I were Reggie..I wouldn't give a Rats Ass!! Why? Because I'm IN the HOF!! People KNOW wtf I DID and how I did it. And because even Reggie is smart enough to figure out what I said in my previous post.
#2..See you and I are smart enough to realize that Sammy(unlike Barry) was shit without the roids. So he doesn't get in. Fucking Simple!

50 years from now you don't think people are going to look at the stats of a guy and then look at "when" he played and be able to make a distinction between eras?? Kinda like We are all smart enough to know that a 3.00 era in 1965 wasn't nearly as impressive as a 3.00 in 1999.
I really feel like it's we are all insulting our own Collective Intelligence as Baseball Fans.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

...This is why I go back to the idea that...
There should be minimum standards set just to be considered... but
NO milestone gets Automatic entry...chances are if you got something like 300 wins, 3000 hits or 3 mvps, a careful look at the whole career otherwise will yield the evidence that, more than likely you belong!

[nychelsea]

I tend to agree with LI Steve about keeping out the drug cheats. I'd include A-Rod in that group as well. The whole steroid thing was just too unfair to those who didn't use it. But maybe that's an argument against Andy P, now that I think of it!

I think the number, if there should be one, needs to be lowered to maybe 250 for starting pitchers.

Damn, baseball is almost here. Time for my annual trip to Florida!

Chels

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by nychelsea

1. But maybe that's an argument against Andy P, now that I think of it!

2.I think the number, if there should be one, needs to be lowered to maybe 250 for starting pitchers.

3.Damn, baseball is almost here. Time for my annual trip to Florida!

Chels

1. It would HAVE to be, amongst other reasons.
2. Would that mean 250 wins for "automatic entry" or "consideration"?
3. YES it is!! Bring me back some oranges.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by lightweight

To add to this thread, if you had a crystal ball, name some players that are playing right now, that you feel with make the HOF... The steroid thing aside, I think. Because obviously Arod is a hall of famer but will he? Because of the steroid thing? Can you put him in without Mcguire, Sosa or Bonds?
Jeter, Pulos. Is Posada a hall of famer? or does he come up short like Pettite? Who had the better career? Just curious. Pretty close I would say... But with Pettites, playoff record, does he get the nod?

ARod...Yes...Noone better for most of his career
McGuire...No(but close)
Bonds...Yes..Noone better for most of his career
Sosa...No(but close)
Jeter...Yes..Only one better for most of his career
Pujols...Yes..Noone better for most of his career
Posada...No(but close)At least 2 guys better for most of his career(Piazza,Pudge)
Pettitte...No(but close)At least 5 up to 9 guys better for most of his career(I already listed)

[LorenzoDeMedici]

As a matter of fact he is going to make it RIdiculously Hard for a few other GREAT 1st basemen to get in. Never have there been so many with such prolific hitting and or fielding prowess, playing at about the same time. 12 guys that were they playing in any other era would be among the top 3 or 4.
1st Base
M Teixeira
A Gonzalez
A Pujols
P Fielder
*M Cabrera
J Votto
J Morneau
R Howard
*K Youkilis
D Lee
C Pena
P Konerko
*A Dunn

[Ozzy]

I could call A-Rod lots of things but pussywhipped is not one of them. He apparently goes thru Hollywood A level pussy and tosses them aside like a pine tar rag. And the sight of Cameron Diaz hand feeding A-Rod popcorn at the super bowl looked more like a king getting fed grapes by his sex slave than anyone who was pussy whipped.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

...but care to comment on the baseball aspect of this thread?

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

I could call A-Rod lots of things but pussywhipped is not one of them. He apparently goes thru Hollywood A level pussy and tosses them aside like a pine tar rag. And the sight of Cameron Diaz hand feeding A-Rod popcorn at the super bowl looked more like a king getting fed grapes by his sex slave than anyone who was pussy whipped.

...is whiny little douchebag, but wannabee tough-guy Evan Roberts(and some other guy) on WFAN talking about her like she's not really that hot. Yeah like he has any chance of doing half as good as A-Rod.

[Ozzy]

She was maybe the hottest girl ever in that Mask movie... but that was what...15 years ago? She's gotta be in her upper 30's now, she looks pretty damn fucking hot to me.

[nychelsea]

Originally Posted by Ozzy

She was maybe the hottest girl ever in that Mask movie... but that was what...15 years ago? She's gotta be in her upper 30's now, she looks pretty damn fucking hot to me.

Totally agree with all posts about Cameron Diaz - way hot.

Yum,

Chels

[pudgy.in.the.middle]

10 years so far and avg'ed 200+ hits/yr, 100 runs/yr 38 steals/yr & .331 BA. Gold Glover.

He may not have the milestones mentioned, but if he retired today I would think automatic HoF entry.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Originally Posted by pudgy.in.the.middle

10 years so far and avg'ed 200+ hits/yr, 100 runs/yr 38 steals/yr & .331 BA. Gold Glover.

He may not have the milestones mentioned, but if he retired today I would think automatic HoF entry.

....more even "Productive" years and he is without a doubt.

[pudgy.in.the.middle]

Originally Posted by LorenzoDeMedici

....more even "Productive" years and he is without a doubt.

He is 37. Not sure if he can have that kind of batting stats in his 40s. 3000 hits is a possible milestone for him, but I would think the "Gale Sayers" rule should apply.

[nychelsea]

Ichiro should be a first ball HoFer. He is magician with the bat. If he would only speak English more he'd be a hero in every city.

Baseball's back (well almost)

Chels

[Gavvy Cravath]

The 39 year old Mexican I had mediocre sex with yesterday is better looking than Cameron Diaz. Completely overrated.

Um, I doubt any of us think this guy is a HoF'er, but if he has three more years of 150 hits, he gets to 3,000!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...amonjo01.shtml