Discussion in 'Politics and Religion' started by seeker6591, May 25, 2006.
whenever a claim of citizenship or residency or legal status is made to a federal official.
There was a story on the news the other night about a woman whose social security number somehow got stolen and ended up being used by several dozen illegal aliens in the southwest, causing her unbelievable hassles.
But none of the employers who hired those illegal aliens will face any charges because they are not required to check the validity of social security numbers.
This is the kind of problem a secure national ID (or just a secure Social Security card) could solve.
Personally, I don't see what the objection would be to putting a photo or a fingerprint on a Social Security card.
Practically all those European countries some of you admire so much have national ID cards. We come close to having them already, with drivers' licenses. There's a lot of good purposes that would be served with a highly secure ID, but I'm not sure I'm in favor of it. Actually, almost all of those other countries intrude into peoples' lives much more than here in the USA, except for mongering.
I wish our government didn't stick its nose into mongering the way they do, but it's the heritage of our conflicted past about sex. I don't like it, but I wouldn't trade living here for just about anywhere else.
Bman-Thanks for the info. I'll look into it more when I have some time tonight. Welcome aboard.
NJman-I just mentioned the RFID as something to be on the lookout for and a potential problem should they decide to try and go that way.
The only other question I have is what situations will prompt the question
"can I see your national ID card"?
With the recent NSA/Telco wiretap scandal, which is no longer going to get a real investigation, this sort of stuff makes me uneasy. For people who follow the tech world and work in the communications industry, what the administration is doing now smells of the former TIA (Total Information Awareness Plan, but Total was later changed to Terrorism) program spearheaded by former deputy NSA head John Poindexter. This is the same Poindexter who got off on a technicality for leading the Iran-Contra affair. Congress scuttled the TIA program in 2003 by explicitely dissallowing any funds for the program from the defense budget, but the evidence suggests that it continues in secret at the NSA.
"The TIA program was researching, developing, and integrating technologies to virtually aggregate data, to follow subject-oriented link analysis, to develop descriptive and predictive models through data mining or human hypothesis, and to apply such models to additional datasets to identify terrorists and terrorist groups.
Among the other IAO programs that were intended to provide TIA with component data aggregation and automated analysis technologies were the Genisys, Genisys Privacy Protection, Evidence Extraction and Link Discovery, and Scalable Social Network Analysis programs."
Read the IAO research section from the above link for details. TIA included storing even personal credit card transaction information and mining it for patterns. Imagine someone circling 2-3 major strolls regularly - such a pattern wouldn't be hard to identify, especially if they come from out of town.
Funding for TIA All But Dead
"Outside Poindexter's Pentagon office is a logo showing an all-seeing eye on top of a pyramid and the slogan, "Scientia est potentia" ("Knowledge is power")."
"As a vice president at Syntek, Poindexter worked on Genoa -- an "intelligence mining, information harvesting" software package designed to data mine large databases. Genoa's "goal is to produce better national decisions through structured, collective reasoning." It allows interactive online meetings and collaboration.
On Thursday, February 14, 2002, John Poindexter was appointed by President George W. Bush to lead the Information Assurance Office at the Department of Defense's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. Despite Mr. Poindexter's criminal record of lying to Congress, the President thinks he is "an outstanding American and an outstanding citizen who has done a very good job in what he has done for our country, serving in the military". It is at the IAO that Mr. Poindexter began work on Total Information Awareness, a plan to watch Americans like the Stasi watched East Germans -- but using technology this time, instead of people. Mr. Poindexter's friend Edward Aldridge told FOXNews that "John had a real passion for [Total Information Awareness]." "
About his wife Linda from the same link -
"In August of 2001 Linda left the Episcopal Church, where she was a priest, to join the Catholic Church. She told the National Catholic Register that "There is a tendency among Protestants to 'think for themselves' and that's what's led to so many differing denominations. There is an unclear sense of authority. I was able to accept the structure of the Church's authority more easily. Thus I am at peace."
Linda now attends the Roman Catholic parish of St. Raphael's in Rockville, Maryland on a weekly basis. John attends the church with her but has not yet converted to Catholicism. She says "In all but name he's there [in Catholicism]. He certainly agreed with what I was doing. It would be difficult without that support." The church is located at 1592 Kimblewick Road in Rockville. The pastor is the Reverand G. William Finch.
Linda sometimes volunteers at The Catholic Information Center, 815 15th St. NW, Washington, DC., which is staffed entirely by Opus Dei priests. She appreciates the leadership of Reverend C. John McCloskey, a man who "concedes no quarter to modernism". "He's fairly quiet and not at all the bombastic type. He's persistent. He attracts people because he's very brilliant and thoughtful," Linda says of Father McCloskey."
I usually just lurk here, but haven't seen anyone here mention the TREAD Act and think it is important enough to chime in. TREAD was passed after Ford Explorer/Firestone tire problems around 2001. It has been updated to mandate UHF RFID in all vehicle tires. UHF means Ultra High Frequency. I mention UHF because that type of tag can be read at 180+ mph and highway readers have already been developed. These tags can also be put to "sleep" until they receive a wake up code, but there is no real way to disable them without destroying the tire. Car dealerships will be writing each car's VIN # into these tags, though I don't know if that will get transferred when you buy new tires. Either way, the first time you go through a toll booth the tag ID # can be tied to your plate even if no VIN is encoded.
"Within a few years, RFID tags will be embedded in
automobile tires to allow precise tire tracking in the
event of a recall. This tracking capability was man-
dated in the November 2000 Transportation Recall
Enhancement Accountability and Documentation
(TREAD) Act, passed in the wake of the Fire-
"Tire Identification -
Radio frequency identification (RFID) technology applied to automotive tires: the key to the revolution in tire identification and supply chain management."
"The statement also notes that the tags will be compliant with ISO tag standards and Auto Industry Action Group (AIAG)'s B-11 standard for tags used on tires. The AIAG created the B-11 in response to the Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation Act (TREAD Act), which the U.S. Congress passed in November 2000, requiring all tires on new-model cars to be individually trackable. Since the B-11 conforms to the EPC numbering scheme, retailers and the Department of Defense can use the EPC for inventory purposes. ISO is on the cusp of ratifying the ISO 18000-6c standard, compliant with EPCglobal's Gen 2 protocol."
That is a valid concern. I would not want to be tracked either. And I agree with your and others' points that these cards are not a great help with immigration problems.
However I do not think it is possible for the government to do this tracking. Yes the technology exists for them to do this...but It is not possible to do it without getting caught. Any such traching effort (even putting in the ability to track) would be a great cost and effort and the radio signal in the RFID's is easily detected.
My main concern is if they try and implement RFID technology into it (which I believe they will), it makes the data readable even if I don't want it to be read.
A citizen, permanent resident, temporary resident, visitor should have to prove who they are. The current documentation melange that folks use is generally state based (birth certificates, drivers licences etc.) and thus fall into 50 different jurisdictions. The only diff here are passports (and citizenship certs for naturalized citizens).
This is about which level of govt. is responsible for which infrastructure. Since some critical infrastructure comes under federal jurisdiction - they should be responsible for (as well as able to control) the authentication I mentioned previously.
I don't see the cards as a horrible slap to patriotic Americans (I strongly believe that most Americans are patriotic). I think it a rational step for America to take.
Most of you posts are vague, ambiguous blather. One more time:
what, specifically, about a National ID card offends you?
i have already explained this in the thread. The question is why would YOU want them?????????
Why is it inappropriate for anyone? I'm trying to understand why the cards offend you.
I do not know if the 9/11 attacks would have been stopped. We were not vigilant back then and had no reasons to be.
sorry ... no I don't know. Pls. explain.
what you propose is really more appropriate for convicted felons and sex offenders...not hard working and patriotic Americans.
do you really think the 9/11 hijackers would have gotten their id cards or that had id cards been in effect, they would have prevented 9/11 or any terrorist act for that matter?? you know the answer...I wont even bother.
fortunately,,the vast majority of Americans are against them.
to think otherwise is just plain welll you know...!
Why id cards...
You need to be able to authenticate someone. This way you can better control who has access to restricted resources like airplanes, nuclear installations, refineries. I think that this is one way that the government will try to approach it.
The card is a way to authenticate. A known way to authenticate is to use a fixed token in combination with a random sample and be able to return true from a pre-defined test (password matches, two insync random number generators, realtime dna vs. fixed sample). The card may not need be a physical thing at all - but just a record in a database. To me the ID card is better becuase you yourself have posession of the fixed sample and are the source of the current sample.
I would love to hear arguments against the id cards. I'm not able to see much of a downside to them. A minor inconvenience - like the need to acquire driving and travel priviliges. But the upside includes efficiency, reliability as well, the ability for employers to easily comply with some of the policies and laws.
How many police states do you know with open borders? Your argument against the national id cards/dna having no place in the USA, can be made about closing the borders.
As I understand it, enforcing existing laws on employers is the chief purpose of the national ID card. Right now fake Social Security cards and other documents are easily obtained, giving employers an easy out. That's the reason something new is needed.
I agree, except for the ID cards.
You're completely right.
Don't know about Sen. Sessions, can't comment.
Would you be so opposed to a national ID if the idea were to just add a photo and a fingerprint to Social Security cards?
its not going to accomplish anything regarding illegal immigration.
as I said it must be stopped at the source.
enforce EXISTING LAWS DIRECTLY
1. AT THE border, and
2. at employer locations.
id cards, amnesty,employer exemptions...all idiotic ideas!
TRIAL guest worker program....thats a good idea.
the costs of amnesty to the govt are overwhelming!
the estimate is that the 12-20 million illegals will lead to 80 million additional "citizens" in 20 years.
social security.medicare and state welfare budgets are nearly bankrupt now.
who is gonna pay for this mess 20 years from now??
has the Congress factored this into the eqation? nope.
Sen. Seesions (R) is the only one whgo has and opposes the Bush proposals.
Because the current forms of ID are laughably easy to fake.
I am registered with the government. I have a drivers license, a Social Security card and a Passport. And probably some other stuff.
Please show me the part of the Constitution it violates. And tell me why a Social Security card is not also unconstitutional.
No, there aren't. Last year the average was less than two a day, down from more than six a day in the early '90s.
You're right about that.
If that's true then we won't get them.
Because I'm serious about stopping illegal immigration.
Actually, I think they should just soup up the Social Security card. Put a photo and a fingerprint on it, make it very hard to fake, and you're done. Seems like it would accomplish the same thing.
exactly so why do they need another id card?
the answer is they don't!
if your so keen on it why don't you go register yourself yourself with the government.
it clearly is unconstitutional and just another stupid idea...this time proposed by someone who is acting well outside his domain. their are 5 murders a day in NYC, the infrastructure is falling apart, and the schools suk...perhaps he should better focus his attention on these matters rather than US ID cards.
a vast silent majority of the LEGAL US population strongly opposes id cards.
why good god would you be interested in such a nonsensical proposal ????
Penalizing employers who hire illegal immigrants is one of the chief purposes of a national ID card. Because the card would be very hard to fake, employers could no longer claim they were fooled by forged documents.
I don't know why it's a pathetic farce. If you're serious about stopping illegal immigration it's a good idea.
And all this dark hinting about Orwellian police states is just nonsense. We all have Social Security cards and drivers licenses, most of us have passports. If the government wants to track us they can already do it easily.
If working in day labor gets around this thing then I really question its efficacy.
Separate names with a comma.