Can a Hobbyist be Happily Married

Discussion in 'General Industry Related Topics' started by Rokin, Jun 29, 2006.

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  1. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    You are correct. Bad choice of words on my part.

    But it goes back to the selling guns and ski masks example I made earlier.

    Sure, there are those who can purchase this combo and the seller never need worry about having contributed to something gone wrong.

    Still, common sense would have to dictate to the person who sells this combo that there is a very good likelihood that some of his/her clients are going to take what they purchased and do wrong with it.

    At some point folks like S.A. have to acknowledge to themselves that they aren't part of the solution, but part of the problem, if they truly think that telling a lie to a loved one to cover ones philandering is a major problem.

    Again, I don't think that, so I don't believe she is, part of the problem that is.
  2. hobbyman08401

    hobbyman08401

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    23
    I think slinkybender hit the nail on the head

    In his thread:
    http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26653

    he states (to repeat):

    The effects of whoring on viewing the civilan population
    I was talking with a friend last night and she questioned whether a bunch of older guys fucking a bunch of 18 year old girls at underground events would have an effect on their ability to view the population of civilian women who would be in their natural dating pool "normally". I disagreed somewhat with her premise, in that I think is doesn't have, for a number of guys, to do with the fact that they are seeing younger women for pay, because a) a lot of these guys don't use these venues as their only commercial outlets, and b) that there are plenty of guys who see prostitutes who are not just 18 year olds (for example, if there are 2 women of equal looks, I persoanlly almost always choose the 35 year old over the 18 year old. But it's the "equal looks" part which is the kicker, ince odds are the "average" 18 year old is going to be better in the looks department than the "average" 35 year old). But I do agree that there are plenty of guys why very specifically look for hookers who are on the younger side (look at the popularity of Val's stable of younger girls).

    However, while I agreed with part of her premise, I think it's for a reason she agreed with, but isn't central to the "age thing". It's that seeing hookers takes the "desperation" for sex away. Taking desperation in any sort of negotiation makes a party less likely to settle. So, in this xase, it makes guys less ;likely to settle for a "less than perfect" woman in dating, or for married guys makes them less forgiving of their wive's faults. I added (which she disagreed with) that I think that most guys (women, too) think that they are better looking than they actually are; so, if they are getting sex for $ coupled with this, they are more likely not to "settle" for women who may actually be within the likely "range of looks" whom they could reasonably expect to date, but since they are fucking better looking one's for $, and they think they "deserve" a woman of that looks callibler, it inhibits their abilites to find "normal" dating because they are shooting above their pay grade.


    Now my own personal experience has born this out, and so help me I didn't realize it untilI read his thread (what an idiot, I'm usually more philosophical than that).

    Not only do I partake of the occasional female companionship, but I also frequent the go-go bars here in south Jersey. Now I have befriended quite a number of the dancers at one particular establishment. When I walk in there I am surrounded by attractive younger ladies all vying for my time. I have even hired a few of the dancers to work for me at my business, and they perform their tasks well, and of course there is the occasional flirtation.

    I offer this info since lately my wife and I have been going through a rather difficult time and she has stated on more than one occasion I don't seem to like her very much anymore.

    Now I am a fairly attractive fellow (by others description, not my ego) but I have somewhat of the middle aged belly from quitting smoking.

    I am beginning to think on slinky benders thoughts that perhaps I have left my normal 'dating pool' and I am going to walk away empty handed if and when my marraige falls apart.

    So, in summary, perhaps hobbying DOES have an effect on your relationships by emboldening you to act on things you would not normally do.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2006
  3. JXM

    JXM Bronze

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    538
    Word. Describes my situation perfectly.
  4. pusieDr.

    pusieDr.

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    rokin this is a good ? but i have one for the group would you be happy if your wife was gone because i am married and i love my wife and kid and i like to hobby if are wives would hobby maybe we like are marriages better.n the spice of life different spices the same spice tends to get boring
  5. bn973

    bn973

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    35
    Definitely you can have a happy marriage and hobby - variety is spice of life for men and who knows, maybe our wives too. If you can keep the compartments seperate and don't overspend its ok. i try to cut wife slack on some 3 bill expenses to make up for an occassional monger...
  6. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    Not specifically, at least not so in regard to my responses to it.

    I believe she is expressing a POV and holding her own behavior out as an example to validate that POV. My responses regard the POV, not the behavior. IOW, I am expressing that the viewpoint doesn't hold water, logically speaking, not expressing a decision regarding the rightness or wrongness of the behavior.

    This is further demonstrated by my, multiple times, expressing to her that my own values system would find her faultless in regards to culpability for the lie told by the husband because the part she provides, the sex, is natural and there isn't anything wrong with providing it.
  7. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    We could debate that on the basis of "well than, what else could one reasonably do" standard...

    Call it a bad choice of wording than and switch it to: provokes it.
  8. Wwanderer

    Wwanderer Kids, don't try this at home

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    6,001
    If it is your delivery, I for one do not see why. I am sure that I have seen posts in which you say it is not about justification many many times, and I think you have also used the word "deconstruction" a few times before. That word is a sign that says "analytic not normative" in big friendly red and green flashing neon letters.

    Fwiiw, this is the same distinction I had in mind in the post in which I wrote the above; The first question in quotes is basically dispassionately analytic; the second is emotionally judgemental. They are different in a very fundamental way. (Btw, I have decided to hope/guess that Slinky's reply that he can hardly tell the difference between the two was meant in jest or sarcastically or ironically or in some other non-literal sense.)

    Btw, as I read it, the ongoing discussion about whether or not SA is behaving properly given her beliefs about married men seeing prostitutes and lying to their spouses about it is normative and judgemental, not analytic deconstruction.

    -Ww
  9. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,817
    Logic fault: it does not "necessitate it".
  10. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    Now, I must go to sleep so I can be rested to do that thing that I do for a living [well, one of them anyway] later tonight.

    Besos and well wishes.
  11. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    That is a moral judgement and that isn't what I've been talking in the ' why does it all have to be like this in the first place", part of this thread.

    If you want to bring it into terms of morality than I know what the problem is here, you want to see your part in this as singular and not part of a process.

    You can't do that, as I stated and I think most would agree, because the acts are connected. One doesn't happen without the other.

    If you truly believe, I mean not just "it would be better if men who had sex outside of their marriage were honest with their wives about it" , but "it is wholly wrong for men who have sex outside of their marriage to to lie to their wives about it", than stop selling sex to married men.

    Certainly they would only go somewhere else for it but it would remove you from the process and thus end your culpability in your having enabled them in that process. You'd no longer be an accessory before the fact to the act of the lie.

    That snowball that can't reach the bottom of the hill, where it certainly must go, without passing though you first would than have to pass through someone else and your are no longer involved in the very thing you hold a moral issue with.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  12. SubmissiveAngel

    SubmissiveAngel

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    839
    thorn, nothing about seeing me or lying about it was necessitated. if anything, i would think monogamy is what might be considered "necessitated" in your situation.
  13. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    I'd only think you were enabling me in lying to my wife, and thus culpable in a situation of mutual disfunctionality, if I believed it was wrong to be having sex with you in the first place.

    Since I don't believe that I don't find you culpable.

    However, you can't cut the string that runs through the acts as they are connected. If it is OK to be able to have sex with you as a client than, while it might be healthier for me as a person to tell the truth, it is a viable alternative to protect myself from the stigma of an act that is "OK" but not socially acceptable by lying to my wife about it.

    [I don't get what is so hard to follow about this: IF you believe it is OK to have the sex in the first place, and you know by the nature of your business that most of your clients are married and will have to lie, at least by omission about having had sex with you, than how can you not understand the need to follow the act with that protective, face saving, omission. The acts are connected by a thread. One necessitates the other. If you hold a belief that the lie is wrong, don't involve yourself in the act that necessitates it as you become an accessory before the fact to the commission of "the crime".]
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  14. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    And how someone like JL can't see what I am driving at, when put in terms like these, I certainly am at a loss to understand.

    Put it this way: [I know, truly beating the dead horse...]

    SA sells guns and ski masks. Is it correct for her to do so when she is against armed robbery but she knows that 80%+ of her clients are going to go out and do just that?

    She has to know 80%+ percent of her clientele are married, she is selling them the gun and the mask that they are going to go home and lie to their spouses about, yet she appears to have a moral dilemma about lying husbands?
  15. SubmissiveAngel

    SubmissiveAngel

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    839
    thorn, do you personally believe i am culpable or responsible in some way for your lies to your wife? not in theory - i mean IRL.
  16. Thorn

    Thorn

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    7,772
    Totally different. That althlete in your scenario isn't holding a moral conviction. He holds a theory that states it would be best for people not to eat high fat but he doesn't think it is morally wrong to eat high fat. Just that they would be healthier for not doing so.

    If SA's point is that people might be healthier not to lie to their spouses, which is not a value judgement but a scientific observation, than she and I are 100% in agreement. [who could argue that?]

    However, if it is as it appears on its surface [at least to me] that she is making a value judgement, saying that it is morally wrong to lie to one's wife about eating steak [sports fucking] that she is the vegan working in a high end steak joint. Knowing, in her heart of hearts, it is wrong to do something but being involved in part of the process that brings that very thing about.

    Even if she doesn't tell the lie, if her beliefs are devout, how can she involve herself in the process, even if it is one step removed, that brings the very thing she believes to be wrong about. Its aiding and abetting the "crime" before the fact. It makes her an accomplice. [but again, I don't think anyone at this point in the process is doing anything wrong, and after the lie is only told to save ones own skin because society disallows the ability to be truthful and not be outcast]

    And that is all I have been saying on that end of the topic straight along.
  17. genius

    genius

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    7,505
    Cigarettes anyone? I've heard you can buy them at your local drug store.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  18. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,817
    Let's take this a step farther: take any salesperson selling anything. If they don't absolutely, 100% believe that what they are trying to sell to their customer is the 100% best product on the market (given budgetary constraints), and that it's good and healthy for them, is it wrong/hypocritcal/whatever to sell it to them anyway? Should Daniel Baloud make you take a colestrol test before serving you fois gras? Or, if you admit that you have high cholesterol to the waiter, should he refuse to serve you fois gras? If you have a heart attack, is the waiter/restaurant a co- conspirator of yours?
  19. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,817
    I think it's pretty clear what she said (unless, of course, someone is trying not to understand a point someone else is making, because that's easier than making a reasoned argument against it).
  20. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,817
    So a High School athlete who is on a stict diet, and doesn't think people should be ingesting high fat crap because it's bad for them is a hyprocite when his after school job is at MacDonalds?