'Extreme Measures' by LE???

Discussion in 'General Industry Related Topics' started by its_mousey, Feb 13, 2006.

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  1. whitelightening

    whitelightening banned

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    Clark County which is Las Vegas does NOT allow prostitution. It is illegal in Clark County. Its outside the county that it is legal in the licensed brothels
  2. johnpet

    johnpet

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    The dumb part is we already have a working model of legal prostitution in this country. It's called Clark Country Nevada and it seems to be working just fine. It would be naive of me to suggest that all the girls who work there enjoy what they do since I'm sure that's not the case. But a fair percentage of the workforce hates what they do. The bottom line is the girls who work at those places do so of their free will and it's regulated and controlled.
  3. its_mousey

    its_mousey

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    No, the main reason prostitution is illegal is because society has deemed selling sex for money as immoral. Health concerns and abuse of women (i.e., forced into prostitution) are secondary considerations.

    Your example of banning marriage because married women get battered and abused does not make any sense. It's not the fault of marriage that these women are assaulted, it's their fucking husbands. What IS a crime is spousal abuse.

    I suppose a high-priced indie or agency girl (or even those run of the mill CL providers) can hardly be considered "victims." Indeed, w/the prices they charge, it certain feels we are the ones who are being victimized. So yeah, as an avid hobbyist, I too would like to think that all forms of prostitution is victimless. But we all know that's not always the case, as attested by thousands (if not millions worldwide) of women and children forced into the sex trade. Furthermore, prostitution is inextricably intertwined w/other illegal activities that are not victimless such as drugs, guns, organized crime, etc.

    Now, I'm no strong proponent for law and order and all of that Chuck Norris goodness. I certainly believe LE can invest their resources elsewhere (like securing our fucking shipping ports or hunting terrorist cells etc.). I'm merely acknowledging the nature of the beast.

    *Squeak!*
  4. johnpet

    johnpet

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    Out of everything that's illegal that should be legal prostitution has to top the list. They say the girls get abused which is the main reason it's illegal. Married women get battered and abused but marriage isn't illegal. Aside from physical abuse - which can happen in all relationships - it's a victimless crime. If anything they should just make solotication in public illegal. The solves neighborhood complaints.
  5. Bandaid

    Bandaid

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    That's about it, johnpet. It's the exposure that hurts. I don't have anything to lose, but most guys do. Still, it isn't an experience I'd want to go through, but my choice is to run the risk or quit the hobby.

    I'm not a lawyer, but the legalities of the thing are interesting to discuss. This Virginia thing is getting more transparent every day. Bunch of yahoos.
  6. johnpet

    johnpet

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    In the real world this all gets plead out. Forget about a lawyer. I've never seen or heard of a whore actually going to a full trial. It's a waste of everyone's time. Normally in my city they plead to some misdemeanor with a small fine and they're back in business. I guess when they nab a heavyweight like Heidi Fleiss that would end up going to court. But if you're just some random whore caught up in a sting just be prepared to pay a fine and go home. In Maryland John's are offered a program instead of jail time if they take the plea deal. So deny the plea and you're just irritating the judge - then you might see a few days in jail. Take the damned plea, go to the prostitution awareness classes for a few weeks and it's over.
  7. goofy3

    goofy3

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  8. its_mousey

    its_mousey

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    Lazy LE Finally Suspends 'Extremely Unecessary' Measures

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11413980/

    I don't see any reason for the legal wrangling here since it's fairly obvious from the articles that the LE here in question had sex (charges were "prostitution" and "sodomy") for money (a total of $1,200 were spent on 4 visits alone).

    Also this argument that "if the girl demands a tip after the sex act, she is the one has broken the law, not the officer because maybe the cop thought she liked him so much, she gave him sex" is quite insulting to the average man's intelligence. LEs went back "multiple times" in order to "build trust with the operators." It wasn't a one time thing. It was a practice that they repeated over and over again - at least four times (massage, sex, then "tip", although in the article, they've been doing this since 2003!!!!) C'mon, using that kinda argument is like a john picking up a woman who's known to be a SW in a area reputed for prostitution saying "oh I just happen to pick up this friend of mine whose name I keep getting wrong coz' she needed a ride officer and suddenly, we felt like making out so we parked in this dark secluded area known for crack dealing and prostitution." Yeah, uhuh, let's see if the jury will buy that.

    But setting aside legal minutae, in a time where trust in government is at an all time low, it is critical that LE, as servants of the public, whom we give our tax dollars to in good faith, should avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

    Like I said in one of my postings here, there are many ways these lazy fucks could've gotten a clean bust. If our LE here in NJ/NY could do it cleanly, so can they!

    Here's the coup de grace of this whole fiasco:

    "Spotsylvania Commonwealth’s Attorney William Neely said he respects Smith’s decision to end the practice, but refused to apologize for the officers’ tactics."(emphasis added)

    Talk about arrogance. Mo' Fo' was probably upset that he can no longer have freebies at tax payers' expense.

    *Squeak!*
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006
  9. kassyS

    kassyS

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    Cannot find link anymore, however, here is a new one.

    http://www.wftv.com/news/7043931/detail.html
  10. johnpet

    johnpet

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    I simply think there's bigger things for the cops to worry about in my city then a guy getting a handjob during a massage. Someone's robbing a store while some cop is on the table getting taken care of which results in dismissed charges. Wouldn't matter if the charges stuck since it would get plead out anyway. 100% complete waste of time and money.
  11. Bandaid

    Bandaid

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    2) would be problematical. The bargain doesn't have to be stated to be an exchange of sex for money.

    3) turns into a matter of credibility. The cop would never be able to sell that idea to anyone. If I paid a house fee and get laid, who is going to say that's not prostitution? It's a bargain, but it isn't free sex.

    Sure asking afterwards would be prostitution.

    The thing with all this stuff is the law isn't like a computer program, whether things are yes/no either/or. Triers of fact are allowed - no, they're expected - to figure out what happened and to decide who they believe. This can be bad or good, depending on things like giving the cops too much benefit of the doubt. I think that's less likely than it used to be.

    What instructions the judge gives the jury matter a lot. The jury can't consider entrapment, for example, unless the judge has told them they can and instructs them on the law of entrapment. If the judge tells the jury that solicitation after the act is the same as solicitation before, the defendant's sunk.

    OTOH, few prostitution cases go to trial. LIke Normus said, the DA and the defense look at the pros and cons of each other's hands and dispose of the case.
  12. Normus Johnson

    Normus Johnson

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    .

    Now, I'm not saying that those LE shutting down spas by having sexual contact are the same. As I've stated earlier, both cops (the one in the Newark article and the one I just mentioned) acted on their own. But I think that if you bend the rules too much and give unfettered discretion while having no accountability whatsoever, this becomes a slippery slope than can lead to the most extreme and heinous scenario.



    Our system only works if we have authority restrained by law. That means you can't break the law to enforce it. However that being said, in the scenario I mentioned above, the police don't reallly break the law.


    1.) It is not illegal to get a massage at an MP.

    2.) If the girl starts a HR or other sex act without mentioning money, no law is yet broken.

    3.) If the officer accepts the sex act, and there is no mention of money, the officer has broken no law. Cops are allowed to have sex for free, just like the rest of us.

    4.) After the act, if the girl demands a tip, for the sex act she has already performed, she has broken the law, not the officer. The cop thought she liked him so much, she gave him sex. He can say he was shocked when she asked for money. No one will believe it, but he can say it.

    Where it gets dicey in court is whether you can ask to be paid for a sex act you already perfomed, and still call it prostitution. A DA may not want to pursue this, not knowing how a judge would rule, therefore the dismissal, or plea bargain to something really lame.

    There is a huge sleaze factor here, and that is where people would really look at this as bizarre behavior by LE . But under this scenario, the police broke no law.
  13. its_mousey

    its_mousey

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    Fucking Makes My Skin Crawl

    I heard this story on the radio this morning. Unless I missed it in the article you posted, I believe this guy was also previously written up for an unspecified "sexual misconduct" w/another officer.

    If the allegations are true, what he did doesn't even qualify as "extreme measures" since it has nothing to do w/an overzealous LE using 'the end justifies the means' approach to enforce the law. The fucker is nothing but a rapist hiding behind a goddamn badge.

    Unfortunately, this kind of shit is not uncommon. Some SWs from Tonnelle Ave. and the area behind the ol' JC Medical Center have told me that they there have been times they had to give freebies to cops.

    But one particular case is worth mentioning. There was this SW that I've seen a few times around the JC Medical area who told me that an undercover cop forced her to blow him or otherwise he'll turn her in. She figured if she obliged him, it'll be quick and he'll let her go.

    Wrong.

    According to her, he suddenly handcuffed her to his steering wheel and manhandled her into doing anal without a condom. She struggled and started beeping the horn on the steering wheel. Fucking guy starts beating her w/some sort of club or stick. She stopped struggling and the guy kept switching from one hold into the other. I didn't ask her if the guy ever came or if she got pregnant. But he'd hit her every so often.

    Eventually he dropped her off at Lincoln Park, which is another part of Jersey City. But before letting her go, he asked her for ID, which he kept. He then threatened her that he knows her real name and where she lives and if she started trouble for him, he'd have someone put a bullet in her skull.

    Now, I'm not saying that those LE shutting down spas by having sexual contact are the same. As I've stated earlier, both cops (the one in the Newark article and the one I just mentioned) acted on their own. But I think that if you bend the rules too much and give unfettered discretion while having no accountability whatsoever, this becomes a slippery slope than can lead to the most extreme and heinous scenario.

    *Squeak!*
  14. UG Staff

    UG Staff Staff

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    2,358
    Anyone remember the ?Blue Angel? incident a few years ago? (Brothel in the West 30's where cops were caught on tape)
  15. Normus Johnson

    Normus Johnson

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    Usually, they use female officers in a different capacity. They send in female UC to apply for jobs. This usually gets the MP owners/managers to incriminate themselves, by describing the work involved. This method was used successfully to bring down Lasata in Long Branch several years ago.
  16. Bluto

    Bluto

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    87
    More extreme measures by LE???

    Officer charged in sex assault
    Newark police captain maintains the encounter in his patrol car was consensual
    Wednesday, February 15, 2006
    BY JONATHAN SCHUPPE
    Star-Ledger Staff

    A Newark police captain was charged yesterday with sexually assaulting a woman in the back seat of his marked patrol car.

    Capt. Ralph Boswell, a decorated 22-year veteran of the Newark Police Department, pleaded not guilty in an appearance before Superior Court Judge Donald J. Volkert Jr. Boswell's lawyer, Anthony Fusco, said afterward that the captain admitted having sex with his accuser but said it was voluntary.

    "He obviously regrets having this encounter with this girl, but it was purely consensual," Fusco said. "There was no force, no threat of force. He vehemently denies the charges and will defend himself through trial."

    Boswell, a former homicide and narcotics detective who was promoted to captain on Jan. 24, was also charged with official misconduct. Each of the second-degree charges could land him in prison for up to 10 years.

    Newark Police Director Anthony Ambrose called the charges against Boswell "a shame."

    "I feel sorry for his family, for the victim and also for him," Ambrose said. "He's got 22 years in the police department, he was shot on duty, he was a terrific undercover officer in the late '80s and early '90s. But today is a dark day for the police department, because the public puts its trust in the police department to protect them."

    Boswell, who is married to a Newark police officer, turned himself in yesterday to authorities in the Essex County Courthouse. He was released after promising Volkert he would come up with $25,000 bail by tomorrow.

    The charges were filed nearly two weeks after the woman first made the allegations on Feb. 3.

    As commander of the department's nighttime operations, Boswell, 49, was working the overnight shift when he picked up the woman in the city's Vailsburg section, police Boswell and his accuser didn't appear to know each other, Ambrose said.

    Investigators from the Essex County Prosecutor's Office and Newark's Internal Affairs Division corroborated the woman's story with help from a witness she flagged down after the alleged attack, Ambrose said. The witness took the woman to University Hospital, where staffers called police.

    The woman, identified in court records only as "Q.M.," told police Boswell had sex with her in his cruiser in the parking lot of a McDonald's on 18th Avenue. She told authorities she left her underwear in the back seat, Ambrose confirmed. She also said Boswell gave her $40, which she handed over to police.

    Police said the woman has never been arrested for prostitution.

    Police impounded Boswell's car, and the State Police Crime Scene Unit towed it to its Totowa barracks. Investigators searched the car and found the underwear, a law enforcement source familiar with the search said.

    Ambrose immediately suspended Boswell from his $86,572-a-year job.

    At the time of the alleged attack, Boswell had been a captain in charge of overnight patrols for less than two weeks. He was also fighting another criminal charge, for allegedly trying to kiss a female officer under his supervision last summer. Boswell has denied that allegation and has accused the younger officer of filing a false police report. That case has been on trial in Newark Municipal Court since November.

    said.

    Fusco said the woman told investigators she flagged him down because she was concerned that someone was following her. The woman alleged Boswell threatened to arrest her as a prostitute unless she had sex with him, Fusco said.
  17. its_mousey

    its_mousey

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    1,095
    Extreme(ly) (Unecessary) Measures

    First of all, there are 2 issues involved here: 1) shutting down AMPs and 2) getting a conviction.

    Second, despite the debate as to the legality of the LE's actions in the subject article, we can all agree that there are plenty of other ways that are legal to achieve both objectives without resorting to having agents engage in sex. It's obvious that these guys were just cutting corners. As to the reason for this, take your pick: lazy, complacent court system, need to score quick brownie points, corrupt, etc.

    Conviction:

    I believe that if these guys were patient enough, they would've been able to obtain admissable evidence from the AMP girls incriminating herself either by words and/or by jesture. Also, I don't buy that DA's excuse that these girls don't speak english, therefore the only way they can bust them is by having sex w/them. Gimme a fucking break, even a fucking whore in Cambodia knows the word "blowjob" or "handjob". But even if this wasn't the case, I'm sure they know the unversal hand signs for these activities! Also, is he trying to say that they cannot get anyone (LE or even an informant) who speaks either chinese or korean???? Bullshit. I bet they didn't even try.

    Furthermore, I'm sure they had enough probable cause (residential complaints, unusual high foot traffic of men & cars, place advertises in publication known for prostitution, etc.) to get a search warrant which in turn could yield more incriminating evidence and/or an arrest (actual sex in the premises, condoms, cash, narcotics, firearms or even videotapes).

    But even if the warranted raid didn't yield any arrests or useful evidence, the raid itself would undoubtedly impact on the AMPs business. This leads me to my final point.

    Shutting Them Down:

    If just keeping these AMPs shut down is their true concern (which the DA emphasized repeatedly in the article), they could've easily done this w/o resorting to illegality. Visible and continued police presence is a death sentence for any AMP. Would you want to go to one when there's a police cruiser always parked right infront of it? This will effectively strangulate the AMP.


    Obvioiusly, these methods may take longer and may be costlier to implement (although it can be argued that resorting to illegal means to get a conviction may be costlier if their case gets thrown out). But at least it's legal. So I don't buy that bullshit that having sex w/prostitutes was necessary and therefore, it is legal. It was never necessary in the first place. If our LE in NJ can do it cleanly, so can they! Maybe I shoulda' named the subject of this thread as "Extremely (Uneccessary) Measure."

    Hmmm, this reminds me of a certain administration that has a penchant for cutting corners...but I digress, such discussion is beyond the limited scope of this thread.

    *Squeak!*
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2006
  18. Bandaid

    Bandaid

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    It may not be entrapment. Entrapment is the cops took an otherwise unwilling person and induced him to commit a crime he wouldn't otherwise have done.

    "However, when a person is predisposed to commit a crime, offering opportunities to commit the crime is not entrapment, such as in the widely held misconception that policemen must answer questions truthfully if they are asked the same question three times, or that they must say "yes" if asked if they are a police officer." (Wikipedia)

    By that "predisposed" logic, they could defeat a guy's defense by the fact he responded to an ad in a place where sex ads were commonly found, like the erotic ads on Craigslist. "If you weren't looking for a prostitute, Mr. Bugdick, what were you looking for?" (voice dripping with sarcasm) The defense would have a hard time getting a judge to even give the entrapment instruction to the jury. (not that there would be a jury most of the time)

    I'd never heard that "three times" thing before. If the female officer actually did it with the person that would a big problem for the cops, but not because it was entrapment. That would be twenty times the uproar that the Virginia thing has caused.

    But the real truth is what Johnpet said. You're busted, you've lost already, no matter what happens.
  19. lamont5123

    lamont5123

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    True 'dat, john.
  20. johnpet

    johnpet

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    This is all a non-issue for most of us since the goal is not getting arrested in the first place. I'm sure I would call my soon to be ex-wife and say "great news - they're dropping the charges." She would say "great - come see your son every other weekend." Then I'd pick up my son and he'd say "daddy, what's a whore?"
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2006