Discussion in 'Sports' started by Ozzy, Apr 15, 2006.
gavy<< it wasn't even a BLIND eye.
Ozzy, you use the word "endorsed". So true...turning a blind eye IS endorsing in my book. Good call.
Selig doesn't want any added attention given to Bonds while he's still trying to sweep the fact baseball not only condoned but endorsed the use if steroids.... under the rug.
Selig announced yesterday that MLB is not planning any special celebration when Bonds pasts the Babe. Why should there be any celebration since Ruth is only number 2 at the time anyway.
it really does not matter, does it? Selig seems to have given him a pass !!
After a slow start Barry Bonds has homered a few times and is three away from tying Babe Ruth. With all the allegations being spread about, I wouldn't be surprised if they tested him after he breaks the record.
Give that man a cigar.
What Met pitcher surrendered his 3,000 hit (the last hit of his career)??
Got his autograph a hundred years ago when I went to Shea for a game vs St.Louis...The Mad Hungarian !!!
Henry Aaron had much the same problem as Clemente. He faced tons of racism in his day and especially as he closed in on Ruth. Aaron like Clemente got a very bad rap. Like Clemente he never really said anything or treated anyone bad, rather just preferred to keep to himself and not talk to the media... and we all know how the media can't paint someone who doesn't kowtow to their every whim. Today a lot of Aarons bitterness is gone though some does remain, but he's clearly now considered one of the most respected and finest gentlemen involved in the game. Clemente improved the second half of his career mostly because racism wasn't so rampant and accepted in the late 60's early 70s as earlier in his career as well the fact he was becoming one of baseballs immortals which garnered him a lot of respect.
btw.... Clemente is the ONLY player in baseball history that didn't have to wait the mandatory 5 years for enshrinement into the HOF when the board held a special election for him. He was also one of the very few who recieved more than 93% of the vote. For example... Mickey Mantle and Dimaggio both only recieved 88%, Mays 94% and Ruth 95%.... thats pretty good company... That goes a long way in showing how much he was liked by his peers and the baseball writers.
Gavy... I'm gonna try and get up next month sometime. Been trying but things keep on popping up.
My uncle got to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in '66. Was a columnist for years there as well. He covered the baseball NY Giants from '51 until they left for the Long Island Press. Covered the Yankees from '58 thru '65. Back in '62, he was offered Jack Lang's job at Newsday, but he didn't have the foresight of what Newsday would become, I guess.
My point wasn't to equate Bonds and Clemente. My uncle's contact with Bonds was limited to either his rookie year (I think he came up in June or July) or a late season call up. Although my uncle doesn't use such words when talking to me, I believe he called him an "asshole". And this was a kid breaking into the major leagues.
I threw Clemente's name in there just because I thought it was interesting. He is pretty much glorified now (and rightly so for his humanitarian efforts, but he, for all accounts and purposes, was a major league asshole to deal with. (I have a lot of acquaintences at Newday for two reasons: 1 - My uncle is good friends with them; 2 - My grassroots involvement with a "coalition" to save a "shipwrecked franchise" on Long Island.) I have revealed more than I care to in this post. But I pretty much trust most of the writers that I have met and have friendship's with. There is one in particular right now that is a very bad reporter for Newsday (A.H.). I don't understand how this man has kept his job for so long.
I have some interesting stories. I'd love to share them over a beer one day. Ozzy, the night I met you, I didn't realize how much we had in common. Music, sports...next time you are up, we're talking!
Clemente was a hypochondriac and hostile, but the Pittsburgh media found him impossible to dislike in the second half of his career, if that makes any sense. He had a legitimate gripe that there were racist overtones to what reporters wrote about him early on and he had a big chip on his shoulder, but the guy had a heart of gold. He died on a charity mission and was beloved by everyone south of the border. It's wrong to mention him in the same sentence as Barry Bonds.
Seaver rarely if ever threw chin music unless one got away from from him. It's more than a scowl. It's the ability to constantly pitch inside. When Seaver came in he usually did it low. Clemens, Johnson and Gibson throw high. You don't get as many strikeouts as Clemens and Johnson (both well over 4,000) by pitching inside at the knees.
Anyone remember Johnson pitching to an empty batters box in an allstar game when Joh Kruk bailed out before every pitch even left Johnsons hand..... Thats intimidation.
If more pitchers today threw high and inside you wouldn't see Barry dogdshit Bonds straping a shin guard to his arm and hanging over the plate like he owns the fucking thing. Look-up and see how how well Barry has hit Clemens and Johnson.
Seaver et al. Just because they weren't menacing in their demeanor. Don't believe for a moment that they solely got the job done with their stuff. Their stuff like any other All time Great major league pitcher always seemed to find a spot just under a batters chin on more than enough occasions. In other words their "stuff" did the scowling. They just didn't scowl when they threw it. That's precisely the difference between The All time Greats & The borderline Hall of Famers like Glavine etc. Trying to teach my son this right now actually. Like many he will probably never get it. But I'm proud of him anyway for not wanting to come across like a bully.
Seaver was great but would have been even better if he had the "nasty" attitude of a Gibson or Clemens. But no one really feared Seaver. He got by on great stuff and threw to three of the best game calling catchers ever in Grote, Bench and Fisk.
Totally agree that all the pitchers you mentioned are great ones - past, present and future-
It got me thinking though that there are some pitchers who haven't had to rely on the intimidation factor to have been successful. Dare I say "nice pitchers"? Tom Seaver comes to mind though I'm sure there has to be others- I don't follow the Astros or Blue Jays much but I do know that Roy Oswalt and Roy Hallady are considered two of the best pitchers in mlb today. Anyone know if they are aggressive/intimidating pitchers?
I guess what I'm getting at is that pitcher's styles are to some extent a part of their personalities.
Do you remember Al Hrabowsky? (http://www.alhrabosky.com/) Talk about intimidating! When I was a young Yankee fan and he played for KC he frightened me through the television! Kinda reminds me of a WWF wrestler now-
There also seems to be a bit of a dearth of pitchers with quirky personalities right now- I think the only pitcher I can think of is Dontrelle Willis of the Florida Marlins. He's no Mark Fidrych, but...
Roberto Clemente was a black from puerto rico who spoke little english and played ball in the late 50's thru the turbulent 60's..... I'd bet he had lots of reasons to be standoffish and surly.
Clemens is hated for other reasons than Bonds. I also never heard of Clemens having the issues with teammates that Bonds had. Clemens travels on team busses and such... not the case with Bonds. Clemens is a great dominating pitcher who has to instill fear into the batters he faces, its part of the game. Many great pitchers like Clemens..... Gibson, Koufax, Carlton, Pedro and Randy Johnson have all been critisized much the same.
Top 2 Jerks
My ex has a cousin that is a middle relief pitcher in the majors- I once asked her to ask him who were the two biggest pricks in baseball- hated by opposing players and teammates alike.
She said that he told her it was Bonds and Clemens, by far.
My uncle covered him during his rookie year or late September call-up in '86. He retired right after the season (but not before getting us tickets to all 4 games of the Series). Anyway, he never talked smack about people in baseball.
When I was five years old, I met Willie Stargell and Ed Ott. I remember Stargell joking with my father that my uncle won't go to his parties because there were too many blacks there. I think this was a joke; my uncle probably wasn't into the drug scene which I now realize was probably rampant in every Major League clubhouse.
Anyway, my point being this: Barry Bonds made a very negative impression on my uncle who covered baseball from after he got out of WWII to 1986. During a phone coversation with him a few years back (I guess when he was hitting 73 homeruns), my uncle told me that as a rookie, he had a major attitude problem, the world owed him a living.
Another guy who was bad with the media was Roberto Clemente. He was a one word answer guy, had a tendency to be surly.
Separate names with a comma.