Greatest Pitcher of All Time

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Lascivious, Apr 25, 2006.

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  1. RoosterC74

    RoosterC74

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    And how about what he did in the World Series to the Yanks and Twins? Were they expansion teams. I think you have stated only part of the facts. For a period of years, Sandy was simply the best. When injuries struck him, he still was very, very good. It was sad to see his career shortened by the injury.
  2. Mr. User Name

    Mr. User Name

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    I'll say it again ! ( same with Maris' homerun record)
  3. RoosterC74

    RoosterC74

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    One word in simple form-Koufax
  4. robnotbob

    robnotbob

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    Another bidder for Clemens besides Yanks, Stros, and BoSox

    Roger Clemens' Family Offers Him One-Year, $10 Million Contract
    May 11, 2006 | Onion Sports

    HOUSTON—Representatives from the Clemens family met with the star pitcher over an informal dinner Tuesday evening to discuss the possibility of keeping Roger Clemens home for one more season, sources close to the family reported.

    "It's hard to put a dollar amount on what Roger has historically meant to this family," said Clemens' wife Debbie, who has been handling most of the negotiations. "Many of the younger members of this organization really look up to Roger—growing up, he was their hero. Now Roger has the chance to be a kind of mentor to guys like Kacy and Kody. They have really been lacking the strong veteran presence that's so crucial at this point in their careers."

    "We need you, Roger," Debbie added. "Please come home."

    According to reports, the contract is a one-year deal with a family option for a second year should Clemens perform well in his new role as husband and father. Much of the $10 million will be deferred to allow the family to accommodate his other demands, particularly the custom recliner and the vanity plates for his Hummer. According to Debbie, this contract is nearly identical to the one Clemens signed to join the family initially.

    The incentive-laden deal includes a signing bonus of $2 million, and gives Clemens the chance to earn an extra $3 million if he makes an appearance in at least 25 family game nights over the course of the summer, plus an additional $250,000 every time he plays a regulation round of catch with one of his sons. Under the terms of the contract, Clemens would not be obligated to attend away visits to Debbie's mother's house.

    Debbie added that the family would have the right to terminate the contract at any point, however, should Clemens ever get caught cheating.

    Some experts say that the aging right-hander is no longer focused or dedicated enough to be a leader in the household. However, many maintain that, should Clemens decide to rejoin his wife and children, he will quickly adjust to handling the responsibility and expectations that come with a lucrative contract.

    "Roger Clemens would be a great addition to this family," analyst Jayson Stark said. "He can really work with those young kids as they develop and mature, and teach them everything he knows. Although the family probably isn't looking for him to fill a role-model-type position, it couldn't hurt to have a guy like him around to be there for them after they've had a rough outing. Those kinds of experiences are invaluable."


    Some analysts, however, say the Houston Astros, who last week formally offered him a $12 million deal, have the strongest chance of landing the pitcher, as Clemens himself has said that the most important thing for him right now is "being close to home."

    "At this stage in his career, Roger Clemens is interested in winning, and I think it's safe to say that his family has no chance of even getting to the World Series," analyst Peter Gammons said. "The Astros organization is full of familiar faces, people with whom he has grown unusually close, and I get the sense that the people there truly care about him. You can't find that sort of unconditional love just anywhere."

    "And when you think about it, $12 million is an awful lot of money," Gammons added.

    Clemens' agent Randy Hendricks said that, although the family does present a lot of advantages that other teams simply cannot offer, Clemens is still undecided about where and with whom he wants to spend the 2006 season.

    "They gave a fair offer, and these folks are certainly in the running," Hendricks said. "Roger is keeping all his options open for now, and I'm sure that, just as they have in the past, his family will be supportive of whatever decision he ultimately makes."

    Clemens has refused to address speculation that his recent visits to the family have been an attempt to coax more money out of competing organizations.

    Some experts, such as Baseball Tonight's Buster Olney, say that the Clemens family is the clear frontrunner to acquire the pitcher, pointing out that Clemens has been working out at the family's Houston-based facility during the winter and spring months. According to Olney, it would be "a homecoming of sorts" for the native Texan, who would relish the opportunity to return to the organization he once helped build from scratch.

    "Sure, Roger may have created a rift with these people, who once claimed to be his 'biggest fans,' but he now has a chance to rectify all that and see his career come full circle," said Olney, noting that if Clemens doesn't take his family's offer now, that opportunity might not present itself again. "He has a shared emotional bond with them that he has only previously experienced with the Red Sox, maybe the Yanks."

    "Whether he likes it or not, Roger Clemens is practically a part of this family," Olney added
  5. billyS

    billyS

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    Because the roids make the muscle stronger but not the tendons or ligaments (you need HGH for that). What happens is that the muscle is so strong that the tendons and ligaments are not made to hold a muscle that strong and the muscle tear away from the bone. Hence the joint problems. A give away is non contact injuries, guys making cuts in the outfield and blowing out their knees (Remember Shane Spencer, playing leftfield at Shea one summer when he was with the Yanks?). Before football came down on roids you saw guys like Joe Klecko blowing out knees all the time.
    Ozzy, the kind of injuries you mentioned above like the tendonites in McGuire's knee that forced him to retire are from the stress they put on the joints over time. Different from a pulled hammy.
  6. Ozzy

    Ozzy

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    15,725
    If steroids (the kind these guys are taking) help you recover from injuries,..... then why is every suspected player having so many health related issues involving joints.... elbows, knees, etc... that are slow in healing.

    Clemens never had any joint or roid related problems.

    From what I understand, the medicinal roids like the ones given to those with serious neck injuries (Dennis Byrd) to induce rapid healing are different than those banned by most sports.
    Last edited: May 3, 2006
  7. billyS

    billyS

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    8,175
    True but they do also help you recover faster from nagging injuries. When you get older you are more suseptable to pulls and it takes longer to recover. An older pitcher might benefit from roids by keeping him on the mound and off the DL and help with his arm's recovery time between starts.
    Lets consider this: (Note: I have always respected Clemens ability and became more of a fan of his when I saw his work ethic when he came to the Yanks)
    Clemens first year and a half with the Yanks he was bothered by hamstring pulls. Then we he came back from the DL in 2000 he was the Clemens of old, totally dominating the Mariners (1 hit and about 16 k's) and the Mets in the post season. Everyone remembers the bat throw at Piazza but forget he pitched a great game. The next year he went 20-3. Did he have help? When Matt Lawton failed his steroid test last Sept. he owned up to it and admitted he took them to get over an injury that was hampering his performance. Is it possible, since steroids were not illegal back then that Clemen took something in 2000 to help him get over his nagging injuries and that the thrown bat incident was in fact roid rage? Now that he is being tested he can no longer get the help and thats why he limped off the mound in the World Series last Oct, looking every bit of 44?
    Last edited: May 3, 2006
  8. scoochamenz1

    scoochamenz1

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    damn, i thought this was a thread about beer.
  9. oddfellow4870

    oddfellow4870

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    If we are going to "coulda might have been" you should look at Ruth's brief postseason pitching career and imagine what a great baseball player he was.

    Postseason Pitching

    Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    1916 WS BOS BRO W 1 1 0.64 1-0 0 1 0 14.0 6 1 3 4
    1918 WS BOS CHC W 2 2 1.06 2-0 0 1 1 17.0 13 2 7 4
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    2 World Series 2-0 3 3 0.87 3-0 0 2 1 31.0 19 3 10 8
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
  10. robnotbob

    robnotbob

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    2,912

    No, that was the greatest LIVING pitcher..this is from espn.com TODAY.
  11. Lascivious

    Lascivious

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    As I much as I love Guidry's 78 season, I think GIbson's 68 yr was the greatest single pitching year in the modern era. You're right...losing 9 games with that era means he should have killed some his hitters.
  12. Lascivious

    Lascivious

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    Yea roids could keep an old dude from deteriating where his body just can't keep up. Bonds kept gaining experience and the roids allowed him to keep his body up to the point where experience and skills made him all world. The same could apply to power pitchers. Experience makes him a better pitcher and the roids allow him to keep his 95+ heater makes him devestating .
  13. Mr. Wet Wooly

    Mr. Wet Wooly

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    No; but some types of steroids could give you incredible energy to work out and stay in the incredible shape you need to be in to keep pitching a 95mph fast ball until you're 40.
  14. Ozzy

    Ozzy

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    15,725
    Steroids offer absolutely zero bennefit for a pitchers mechanics.

    It's not like Clemens threw a 95 mph fastball in his 20's and a 105mph fastball in his late 30's.
  15. circle360

    circle360

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    Wet. I think pitchers were on steroids. But i think it was more the closer / set up guys who were on steroids.
  16. Mr. Wet Wooly

    Mr. Wet Wooly

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    You're assuming Rocket wasn't on steroids too. I'm not saying he was, but certainly many pitchers were, but aren't mentioned as much as the hitters.
  17. circle360

    circle360

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  18. robnotbob

    robnotbob

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    2,912
  19. Heartbreaker

    Heartbreaker

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    From everything I've heard or read, Gibson would be the one pitcher you would want to start a Game 7. What I always wanted to know was, how did he lose 9 games while posting a 1.12 era? Must have lost a lot of 1-0 or 2-1 games.
  20. Lascivious

    Lascivious

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    2,153
    Gibson was a monster. He beat Denny McLain twice in 68 in the world series and was definitely a money pitcher. My knock on Clemens is he's not a big game pitcher or if he does perform, his team ends up losing the game in horrific fashion(86 WS game 6 and 2001 WS game 7). Yea, not his fault, but his team still loss(bad karma) He couldn't beat OAkland in 88 and 90 and Cleveland in 95 posting 0 wins. The Yanks already won 2 world series b4 he came and the first big postseason game he pitched for them was against Pedro and he got rocked while Pedro threw 7 scoreless with 12ks. His last 3 big games was games 7 2003 alcs and the RedSox lit him up(the curse would have ended a year earlier, thank you Grady Little), blew the lead and the game in game7 2004 nlcs and got hurt in 2005 ws. Clemens is a great pitcher and if you want to make him the greatest all time or at least living pitcher like Peter(I love Boston)Gammons did, I have no problems with that but I'll take a Gibson or Koufax over him. I have the same problems with Greg Maddux....a big postseason bust. On the flip side, I definitely think Whitey Ford does not belong with these guys. Great career with great teams but if he matched up with Koufax and Gibson...who would you lay your money with.