Discussion in 'General Industry Related Topics' started by HAPPY GUY, Jul 2, 2001.
Thanks for the advice. It's right on the money!
Everything you wrote about my situation was exactly right. I wish I had handled it better. She's an amateur and I was expecting her to be a pro. I still feel bad about it.
Sorry to hear about the jerk you dated. To that young woman, I was the jerk. Dating is hell.
While none of this is easy stuff, I commend everyone for participating in the discussion. This shows a level of maturity that is pretty rare.
I think that in most situations our problems arise out of either A) not really knowing ourselves (wants, needs, assets, liabilities), B) not being honest about what we do know about ourselves, C) not communicating clearly what we know and D) having these same issues arise on the part of our partner in the situation.
Since knowing the other person is even harder than knowing ourselves, it is doubly difficult to reach genuine mutual understanding. One attraction of this hobby for me is that my physical desires are met with only a minimal amount of this understanding. I always conduct myself in a highly courteous and deferential manner and have been rewarded with very high quality service.
On the other hand, I have opted out of some situations very early in the game when it became apparent to me that the road ahead would be rocky. This has been done with minimal fanfare and with what I believe to be no hard feelings. I really loathe personal conflict. I have very little of it in my life and am much better for it. This philosophy has perhaps made me overly conservative and some might say I have missed some opportunities. So be it. I know that opportunity is abundant and there's no need to try the old "square peg in the round hole" routine. Almost any really bad situation can be avoided by a different decision earlier in the decision tree.
Having said all this, I need to include that I am happily married for many years and would probalby not be so content within myself were it not for that relationship. Validation from a provider is not required. I simply want to have "professional warmth" in both directions. If that doesn't look forthcoming, it's time to close the book.
A final word: it's really hard to give specific advice on specific events. Because there are so many dynamics at work and we are hearing (usually, unless you are a therapist with both parties in front of you) only one perception, we usually help most by relating similar experiences and their outcomes, rather than issuing imperatives.
Though outright directness may be harsh in some circumstances, it might be the best for all involved. It saves you from the slippery slope when the lies have to keep mounting to counter the deperation on the other side.
I can come up with a good reason for the initial rejection, but I am not so good at making lies seem believeable on the fly.
A nice, frank turndown can save you from more difficult situations such as the one K.S. got into. Hey at least he's emailing and not waiting by your door. Obviously this guy has major frustrations to work out so he needs the straight "No thanks."
Then block his email.
Wow! What an interesting thread.
OK, Happy Guy. If you are no longer interested in her, then you should make up a lie that will spare her feelings and get you out of the situation. (I'm sorry - I do believe in lying if it saves a person's feelings). Just tell her that you cannot continue to see her for a logistic reason. You can tell her that you've moving, or that your wife and you are going to therapy and really trying to make it work, or that you've met someone and fallen in love and will be getting married. She doesn't know she's being a pain in the ass, and it's not your job to teach her that. Just extricate yourself with the minimum of trouble and pain.
In the future, try to set up arrangments that keep her cash flow steady and expected. Try "I will give you $XXX a week, if you are available to me one/two/whatever times a week. I may not see you every week, but I will also never see you in excess of X times a week. Please keep Tuesdays open for me, but I will call two days in advance for Saturdays." YOu know, just stuff that maps out what will go on, and how to set it up. If you won't be seeing her for three weeks, then you can decide to either pay her those weeks, or explain to her that she might want to opt out of the arrangment. (Ideally, you shuodl pay of some of it, as most business contracts require at least some notice of termination. You could pay her for one week and explain that it is your last week, until furhter notice.)
Fishfry, I think you were justified to be offended by her behavior. However, I think that it is rude to tell someone to leave a place unless they are being disruptive or very insulting. She is clearly a rank amateur, but isn't that what you were looking for? I mean, if a provider behaved so badly, then you could say "Hey, you've got a fucked up way of doing business, lady" but this gal was clearly clueless. It sounds to me like she wanted a sugar daddy, but didn't feel good about what she was doing. Anyway, no matter how unattracted she was to you, being rejected still hurt. That's why she looked stricken. Now, I don't know what tone of voice she took with you when she said "You should have told me before lunch" -If she was loud and disruptive, then you were right to tell her to leave. If she merely seemed hurt and was rude, but quietly so, then I think you should have maintained a more gentlemanly composure.
You should have said "Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out" signalled for the check, then gotten out of there ASAP. Unless she became loud and disruptive, there was no need to tellher to leave. It is probable that she would have remained very unhappy, but all youneed to do is repeat "I'm sorry about this. Good luck to you" and there needn't be an argument.
The other night, I had a date that went very badly. I started out being attracted to him, but then he behaved rather badly during the date. I thought he was angling too hard to get me to go into his aparrtment, he complained that I wasn't asking him enough questions about himself, he made some comments about how all women have used him... just a real negative guy. But, I maintained a polite face the whole time. At the end of the night, he tried the old "Can I come in and use your bathroom?" gambit (I HATE THAT!) and I found myself in a stupid argument about why he couldn't. I finally told him that I was sorry, but I have a policy of never going into an apartment with a man if I don't want to have sex. That way, I avoid many awkward and even dangerous situations. At this point, he said something like "Oh, that's not fair. You women sleep with all sorts of men until you want to get married, then you make us guys wait." This, of course, is absolutely true, but he didn't have to be such a peevish, whiney bitch about it. At this point, I gently told him that I was sorry, but I didn't feel a real connection with hi,. I thinanked him for the evening, and started to leave. And he went off like a bomb. Ranting and raving and saying that I was confused, in denial, resisting my attraction to him, and throwing away happiness. He also said "I'm sick of women dumping me on the first date" and "All you women are the same."
He is still emailing me, alternately trying to argue with me and trying to ask me out on dates. I ignore all of his emails.
I just thought I'd share that experience, although I have no idea what it has to do with this thread. Oh! Yes - I see now that my mistake was in being kind and trying to explain myself to him. Nobody needs to be told why they are rejected. Give 'em a gentle little excuse, and get the hell out of there. No matter how you try to handle it, it's gonna piss them off. All we can control is our own behavior.
Phantom: Women do experience romantic rejection. We do not actually sit there, passively, while men approach us. I ask men out. I can think of dozens of men who have rejected me. No, they don't laugh in my face, but then, I've never laughed at a man,either. (Unless he had a fucked up pick up line or somehthing.) Also, women get rejected at a different point. Men often argue that we women can always go to a bar and find a guy to go home with. However, we don't WANT that. Really. If I met a guy in a bar and went home with him, I'd probably be crazy about him, and he'd dump me the next day and it would hurt like the dickens.
Trust me - both sexes have it hard. The roles expected of us are different, and there are unique situaions to both, but I'd be certain that it equals out.
BTW, sorry about the typos, this edit box is bigger than my computer screen, so I can't see the ends of lines.
The arrangement that I had with the semi-pro was that we would meet whenever both of us were available. No promises of steady money, and no promises of steady meetings. I made it clear that I was looking for someone once in a while, and she agreed. We also agreed that the best way to correspond was via e-mail, since she lives with her boyfriend and I work at odd hours.
Essentially, she violated our agreement. Now, I know it wasn't set in stone or anything, but still.... a deal is a deal.
As for the whole women/rejection thing, I don't think women ever have to deal with the sort of "romantic" rejection that men do, at least not on the same level. I could be wrong about that, but it seems unlikely. Otherwise, why would they handle it in the way that they do?
That's merely my 2 cents.
Best thing for a semipro is to say, "Here is x number of dollars" like a allowance. If you want more you know how to get it.
One of the major reasons I'm in the hobby is that
98 out of a hundred times I ask a girl on a date, I get stood up... the 99th time, I get laughed at, and maybe the last one, I get coffee once...
Phantom, I'm very sorry that there are rude women out there. There is never any excuse for cruelty. But take it from me, men can be very rude, crude and insulting! (I am talking about outside the hobby) Anyway, Didn't mean to insult you! I just want everyone to be nice and have a good time!
I'm talking about rejections outside the business. You have NO idea what it feels like to find a woman you would like to get to know, walk up to her to introduce yourself and she laughs in your face!
It makes you wish you were never born.
If there's no chemistry, there's no point in continuing. I think you handled it very nicely. I do have to comment on what Phantom had to say.."The world would be a better place if more women felt the sting of rejection" Are you serious?!!!!! All women have been subject to mens approval, from ladies in the hobby to any woman waking down the street! If you are talking about a transaction with a provider, it is not likely that the man (a paying customer) gets turned down by the woman. While it does happen, it is far more common that the woman "...feel the sting of rejection."
Obviously none of us were there to corroborate your retelling of the events, but if we take it on faith that you are an honest guy, I cannot find fault with the way you handled the situation.
take care HP
The world might just be a better place if more women could feel the sting of rejection.
Semipro dating can be tough. I had a difficult experience this morning I wanted to share with the group.
I met a woman through the VV personals. She's 28, a starving artist. Looking for a guy to support her totally, but she'll settle for a 4 or 5 hundred dollar play date once in a while.
I don't generally pay that to escorts but she sounded cool on the phone and I figured if she stays with me for two or three hours for that maybe this might work.
We met in the Village for lunch. The moment I met her I didn't get a good vibe from her. You know how when you meet a stranger either their eyes light up or they don't. She seemed like she didn't like me.
I figured I'd give it a chance though, and I'm the kind of guy who loves to buy a woman a meal regardless. So we went off to eat.
There were a couple of more clues. She seemed reserved, a bit cold. Didn't smile. Not warm -- and if there is one thing men crave from women, it's warmth.
We're almost done eating and we're talking about arrangements, about how most men don't really understand what they're about. And she says, "Yes, I guess I'll have to depend on you."
I was really surprised. I figured she didn't like me and was just there for a free lunch. I had not gotten a single good vibe from her, just polite civil conversation.
I decided to be direct. Always a mistake with women I suppose. I said, as gently as I could, "You seem very nice but I just don't feel that vibe. I don't think we're going to be doing this."
And all of a sudden she seemed like she had been stricken. She looked extremely hurt, disappointed, confused. I didn't know what to do. I said softly, "It was not my intention to hurt your feelings, but I can see that you're hurt.'
She continued to appear extremely upset. The she said that she felt uncomfortable about continuing to sit there. She said, "You should have told me before lunch, or after." I didn't have the presence of mind to remind her that she was the one who had brought the subject up by essentially putting the question to me.
I thought she was about to get up and leave. She seemed totally confused and unhappy. Normally I'd take one for the team, in the sense that I'd let her get up and leave me. Normally I'd let her leave me being the one with egg on my face.
But something in me wasn't down for that today. At the core we were two adults discussing a business deal. Did I want to have sex with her for $500. I didn't. She was good looking and lots of guys would want her, but I just did not get a sex or warmth or friendship vibe from her at all. I don't think she had smiled once since she met me. And I could not see where she was coming off saying she felt too uncomfortable after hearing the answer to a question she had asked. At that moment there was nothing I could do to make this any better.
So I said, very quietly, "You'be being rude. Please leave." She said, "I'm being rude?" It was too complicated to explain. But all I had done was decline to pay her for sex. She was acting like we were married for twenty years and I had just told her I was leaving her for another woman. So in the same low quiet tone of voice I repeated myself. "You're being rude. Please leave."
She got up and left. She was upset for sure. I was angry with myself for not being able to find a better way to do this, but, well, I think if she's planning to go into business for herself she better learn to be more gracious when a guy declines. And she definitely had better learn to flirt, to make a guy feel like she thinks he's special, I knew in my heart that what was done was done.
I thought afterward that when she said, "I'll have to depend on you," I might have said something like, "Gosh I'm really flattered, but to tell you the truth I'm a little surprised you feel that way, because I didn't think you were attracted to me."
Or something. Women don't get turned down very often. She is not a prostitute. She's a semipro, and an inexperienced one at that. So if I was too direct then I should have been smoother. But I wasn't. I just wasn't in the mood to let her be cold and distant during lunch and then get up and leave.
I suppose I'm going to get flamed roundly for this post, both by men and women. I'm not sugar coating any of this. I just wanted to tell people that I am truly a devotee of semipros, but that this can be a difficult and frustrating game. Guys who think this is easy are missing the point. Going to Julie's is easy. Calling up an escort service and having them send over a hardbody is easy. Finding a woman who doesn't do this much if at all, who wants a combination of regular dating mixed in with business, who wants to let you be her only client -- people, that can be a tough game to play, on both sides.
I believe in the Goddess and I'm pretty sure the next few women I meet are going to rip my lungs out one way or another. The cosmic books will be balanced. I don't feel good about this incident, but I did do what needed to be done and in the end it could not have been any different. These things happen.
Just another chapter in the Semipro Chronicles.
I'll help out...send her my way...
The differences between a semipro and a pro are that
1) The relationship is more real. She's not always wearing her business face. And
2) She doesn't have any other clients, and she probably needs the money. When you adopt a semipro for an arrangement, she's counting on the cash to pay the rent, tuition, and other expenses of life.
Number 2 is particularly important. One time I had an ongoing yearlong arrangement with a woman. On two occasions I had business out of town and couldn't see her that week. Nevertheless I came by to her place, visited with her for a few minutes, and gave her the same amount of money she would have gotten for a five hour date. I didn't have to, and she didn't ask. But I knew a little about her lifestyle. I knew the money would make a big difference in her life, the difference between a week of anxiety and a week of comfort. I wanted her life to be a little easier, so I gladly gave the the money.
Happy, I think you and your friend have not communicated clearly enough. She doesn't have a "fuck me for cash" ad in the Village Voice. She's a young woman trying to make it in the most expensive city in the world. If you only want to spend X dollars on her per month, tell her that. Give her a chance to budget. If you lead her to expect 2X dollars and you're really only going to spend X, it fucks up her life.
When you adopt a semipro for an ongoing arrangement, she is counting on you to be a man of your word and to care about her personally. If you're not prepared to be an ongoing supportive figure in her life, that's fine -- but let her know that up front.
Did I say semipro relationships are easy? No. They demand that you be real. It's not like calling up the local brothel where a steady stream of men comes and goes all day. Your friend is counting on you to tell her the truth about the level of financial committment you can make, and then stick to it like a man, and like a friend.
Pass her on to a friend ( although the opperative word in that sentence is "a", not "all of your" ).
This is an addendum to the "Semi-Pro" thread, and a reason that those of you who are curious may not want to try this.
Here's the story: as I mentioned to you, through my ad I met one girl, a very beautiful and nice European lass who wanted a little help putting herself through school. So, we agreed that we would meet whenever both of us had free time. The problem is, she's a student and I work so obviously I don't have nearly as much free time as she does. We agreed that the situation would be set up so that I would call her whenever I could meet, and if she was available then great. If not, then no hard feelings and we'd try to set something up for another time.
The problem is, she has taken to calling me several times a week to see if I want to meet. I'm always super nice to her on the phone, but I've told her that the next 2 or 3 weeks are super busy and I don't think I'll be able to get together until after that time. STILL she continues to call.
I don't think she's so much crazy as she simply wants to get together, but it seems inappropriate to me to the point where I feel like I need to put an end to our arrangement. I don't want to be mean, though.
Any thoughts? Anyone? Please.... help. Thanks.
Separate names with a comma.