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Discussion in 'General Industry Related Topics' started by Candide, Feb 18, 2001.

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  1. K.S.

    K.S.

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    Note: In case anyone was wondering, I only have one cat. The same cat that many of my clients have met.

    I meant that I was in DANGER of becomeing an old spinster with a lot of cats. Like, my biological clock, if unwound long enough, can apparently make me wig out and get more cats.

    That hasn't happened yet. I'm still getting laid on a regular basis.

    Oh, and PaGuy - yes, I sounded bitter. That's called life, darling. We have bad days, we feel pessimistic, we say cynical things.

    Overall, though, I'm pretty fucking happy with my life. This is the happiest I've been since I started kindergarden. Even when my beau gets on my nerves.

    [Edited by K.S. on 02-20-2001 at 10:03 AM]
  2. Candide

    Candide

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    '...I would rather have read tarot cards. '

    "that's what i did, for a time"

    wanna swap fortunes? :)

    And now I work for the new IT division of a large, prestigious, international financial institution and find myself rather important and sought after for advice - like K.S. :) interesting that we both noticed that. I wonder if people sense that we have more than just business/financial/information technology experience? We have had some of the most dangerous experience of all and survived.

    I feel like a faker sometimes, I think of Linda Lovelace and say, 'there, but for my relative sobriety, go I.' Not that I ever came close to her level, no way.

    [Edited by Candide on 02-19-2001 at 12:34 PM]
  3. guy catelli

    guy catelli

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    when i knew her, a few drinks were more than sufficient.
  4. Ozzy

    Ozzy

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    nothing happened to linda that hasn't happened to hundreds of girls over the last 30 years since deep throat.....

    she just figured that by playing the part of a victimized girl with guns shoved in her face in order to *force* her to perform, that she could sell a few extra books.

    she never had a gun held to her head for one. and if she wasn't so doped up at the time, maybe she'd remember that it was her choice.
  5. guy catelli

    guy catelli

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    remembrance of things past ...

    ... I think she was out of it - and when she woke up, she freaked out - she was in shock at who she was and what she was known for.

    when she was still in high school (a catholic girls' school, no less ;)), Linda was already a sexual exhibitionist (x-rated).

    it was really just a matter of turning on the lights and the camera.

    I remember her speaking out against everything she did years later and my heart went out to her - poor lady - she could have done lots of different things - she had the intelligence - but for whatever reason she chose that - time changes everything eh?

    much the same is said about Hillary. hmmm.

    ...I would rather have read tarot cards.

    that's what i did, for a time.
  6. Candide

    Candide

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    Wow!

    I used to work for a film editing studio and these two assistants got ahold of a tiny shred of film from "Deep Throat". They spliced it into a loop and put it on a machine that automatically plays footage. When I walked into the room there was Linda, in the dark, blowing someone over and over, her head bobbing up and down, up and down, and the same bit of farce music was playing over and over and no one was in the room - it was eerie. When I walked out of the room - there were those two film editors giggling at me :) silly boys! She did a spread in Screw Magazine where she was photographed blowing Al Goldstein. I think she was out of it - and when she woke up, she freaked out - she was in shock at who she was and what she was known for. I remember her speaking out against everything she did years later and my heart went out to her - poor lady - she could have done lots of different things - she had the intelligence - but for whatever reason she chose that - time changes everything eh?

    When I was down and out, and didn't want to go back to the 9 to 5, I put out feelers to see if I could start a small independent business - and the only thing which met with any demand at all was selling blow jobs. That was my last choice - I would rather have read tarot cards.
  7. guy catelli

    guy catelli

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    i knew Linda before she was Linda "Lovelace." let's just say that when Deep Throat came out, the first words that popped into my mind were not: "Linda?!? who would have thought this is what Linda would wind up doing!?!".
  8. Candide

    Candide

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    276
    Oh KS, I almost forgot! What would our founding fathers say if they could see the women barristers of today, facing British court rooms with those small, iconic talismans of wigs on their heads like skull caps? Tradition is one thing but that looks just plain silly - who said The Law wasn't just like The Theatre? :) But, actually, some women lawyers look kind of cute in those things, it's reverse drag.
  9. Candide

    Candide

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    276
    "...btw, according to my friends in the performing arts, and even so-called 'high art', it's all about being young these days, regardless of gender. sure, there's Clint Eastwood and Sean Connery. but they're more 'freak accidents' than typical of anything in particular..."

    Ain't it a shame?:) It is strange to live in a society were people live to be 100 frequently and everyone over 35 is struggling to look 20 - to the point of butchering themselves.

    KS - You don't sound bitter to me, just very smart. But I know there is a great dissonance between my own perspective and the opinions of most men...even smart men think I'm obviously "fucked up". I interpret "fucked up" to mean bitter. But I think being bitter means the incapacity to love or feel concern after being emotionally hurt - the inability to heal. For some, just to live long, is to be bitter - just like becoming barren is inevitable. I don't think that will ever happen to you or I.

    I, myself, can admit to feeling jealous, even irrationally afraid at times. But not so much that I can't be open and want to learn from talking... learning... fascinating...I would give a week's salary to talk to Linda Lovelace. I really want to know what happened to her with that whole wallowing in porn stage of her life and her subsequent charges of abuse and force. I think being heavy into drugs helps women do just about anything before they are ready to do it.





    [Edited by Candide on 02-19-2001 at 10:23 AM]
  10. guy catelli

    guy catelli

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    478
    KS,

    i don't want to make you feel any worse. but, the cold, cruel facts of life are that all of us are only worth whatever's left over from a tiny percentage of men at the top.

    ask any male friend over 40 if men beyond that age are exempt from ageism. you'll probably get a rueful chuckle.

    sure, for federal judges, tenured professors, lawyers who are already partners in an established firm, doctors with an established practice, and a relative handful of others, it just gets better. but, these are a tiny proportion of the labor force.

    in the *really* masculine fields -- physical labor, engineering, and outside sales, 40 is over the hill.

    btw, according to my friends in the performing arts, and even so-called 'high art', it's all about being young these days, regardless of gender. sure, there's Clint Eastwood and Sean Connery. but they're more 'freak accidents' than typical of anything in particular.

    yes, 'over the hill' in the job market happens 10 years later for men than for women. but then, women in the u.s. live 8 years longer on average than men, a not inconsiderable consolation.
  11. K.S.

    K.S.

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    223
    Well, Candide, there have been other times when men were vain about their appearances in a way that seems effeminate to us. For example, our Founding Fathers wore powdered wigs and high heels with thin stockings to show off their shapely calves. (Ben Franklin, though, had his macho thing going by not wearing wigs.)

    I doubt men are jealous of anything they can purchase. They can purchase strippers and escorts, and it's commonly believed that even "virtuous" women can be purchased.

    The money and power sexworkers have are given to them by men. This power is carefully controlled, too - because these women are circumscribed in their ability to spend their money normally - they have to lose status, whereas an attorney (female or male) gains status.

    All women, but particularly sex workers, devalue on the market as they age. I would think that true earning power and status would accrue with age and experience, but that is often not the case. I was certainly a better escort by the time I reached 30. When I was young, I didn't know how to deal with people as well. I was simply young, and that was all I had going for me. When I got older, I couldn't help notice that girls who were about 20 were more popular in the lineup at the massage parlor. These same young women often got poor reviews on Redbook, and it was rare that you'd hear an older escort touted for her skills and charm. (I wasn't in that "older" category, myself, at that time - I was somewhere in between. No longer vacant-eyed and inane, not yet wrinkled or sagging.) When I read a review of a young but inept girl, I sometimes wondered "Well, what did you expect?" Of course, I'd spent plenty of time with these girls and had more time to assess their personalities than a client gets in front of a lineup.

    Now, I'm in a different market. Career-wise, I've been lucky in that my job offers opportunities to catch up to my age. (I entered the post-college working world at age 29) But what about the marriage market? When I was in my 20's, marriage seemed absurd. Now, I wonder if I'm in danger of becoming an old maid with a lot of cats. OK...I only wonder that when I'm exasperated with my beau, as I am this weekend. But still, it's frightening sometimes, to be out and see the glossy young things with their dewy skin and supple limbs walk in the room and stop all conversation.

    I'm sure that this is still all in my head - I'm still considered attractive. I think it's just fear of the future and ruefulness over a squandered youth.

    A woman's worth in society is still primarily based on what a man is willing to give her.

    Wow, I sound bitter, don't I?
  12. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    Well, there are two different subjects here. I think the subject you are driving at is very different than the subjects brought up by the book you've quoted. The book mostly drives at male-male competitiveness. In fact, one of the books premises is that the long thought of notion that men try to look better solely to "get women" may not be totally correct.

    As far as male-female competitiveness: I'm sure that there are guys who are jealous of these women and their earning potential. I'm also sure there are guys who "get off" on being with someone who has power over other men, just like there are those who exert power over them ( as I've often said, one of the areas we don't see discussed on these boards in any proportion to the mount of activity taking place; i.e. there's an awful lot of Sub/Dom, S&M, B&D pay for play activity, but not much discsussion ).

    One thing which flies in the face of the "classic" wisdom regarding transexualism is that it was originally fealt that transexuals were women who born into the bodies of men. However, this doesn't explain the sexual habits of transexuals, an awful lot of whom appear to be "tops". A better explanation for many is that they see women in a dominant role, and that in growing up they saw themselves in a lesser light and wanted to be more in that power position. Thus, taking on the female personsae puts them into a more powerful postion.


    Getting back to your questioning me: I will admit that I have some feelings of jealousy for those who are better off financially than I am, but in that I am an equal opportunity coveteer. I am no more jealous of women with more money than men. However, I beleive I am a little out of the norm ( I know, everyone thinks this of themselves ) in that I have always ( the last 25 years ) worked for less money than I could have made "elsewhere" in order to work at things which I enjoyed doing. I could probably make somewhere between 3 and 10 timnes what I currently earn if all I went for was the highest paying opportunity. As such, while I do experience some twinges of jealousy, I don't think I want to trade places with anyone.
  13. Candide

    Candide

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    276
    Slinky,

    You said "natural competitiveness of straight men...".

    Do you ever feel competitive urges regarding your earning power? If income is a matter of ego for men, and I say *If*, does this cross gender boundaries and include women who pull in big bucks as strippers/dancers? I mean....c'mon....do tell...are you ever jealous of these women? Besides finding them hot - is there ever a tinge of the green monster? Be honest :)
  14. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,483
    Part of this is, in my opinion, the mainstreaming of homosexual attitudes. Rather than keeping to themselves, they have integrated, and brought with that the natural competitiveness of straight men to keep up with any guy about anything on any level.
    ( "'When you walked down the street, you were a man among men....'". Yeah, I'll bet....; "they want larger flaccid penises, rather than larger erect ones, to give themselves greater confidence among men." Uh, huh. )
  15. Candide

    Candide

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    276
    from a NYT book review by Holly Brubach on "Looking Good: Male Body Image in Modern America" by Lynne Luciano

    "Surely in addition to the reasons Luciano proposes (competition in the workplace, midlife crises), men's preoccupations with their looks have lately been legitimized at least in part because feminism has loosened the strictures for both sexes. However informally, men and women have worked out a trade: women got access to the world of ideas, and men to the realm of appearances. Luciano would have us believe that these concerns strike men 40 and older - as if vanity were a phase. I would argue instead that the trend is more widespread and lasting and that men in their 20's now have permission to be vain in a way that previous generations did not."

    "...In one instance, a retired clothing manufacturer says that he embarked on a bodybuilding regimen in high school not to attract girls but because of the way it made him feel: 'When you walked down the street, you were a man among men....'".

    "...Luciano informs us that [plastic surgery] patients suffer from a phenomenon doctors call 'locker-room syndrome', meaning they want larger flaccid penises, rather than larger erect ones, to give themselves greater confidence among men."

    I've often heard comments from men about wishing they could command the adulation and attention (and subsequent financial rewards) that popular strippers and dancers do. How many of you would trade in your manhood to be women if you could be stripper material?

    Does the pursuit of beautiful women and the enjoyment of them have anything to do with admiration for their power over other men?