Netscape 6.01 ?

Discussion in 'General Industry Related Topics' started by Hotpuppy, Jul 20, 2001.

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  1. SkellyChamp

    SkellyChamp

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    2,000
    HN - Now, that IS funny.

    Beep9 - etch-a-sketch was the best. I couldn't believe some of the pictures that some people could draw on those things. I had trouble with a straight line and a right angle.
  2. beep9

    beep9

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    348
    Any one ever see the chain e-mail suggesting, as a Y2K fix, replacing PC's with etch-a-sketch's? Something along the lines of tech support FAQ's.

    Q. My machine has crashed. What do I do?
    A. Turn the machine upside down and shake it it.

    Q. How do I create a new document?
    A. Turn the machine upside down and shake it it.

    Q. How do I delete text?
    A. Turn the machine upside down and shake it it.

    Q. How do I save a document?
    A. DON'T SHAKE THE MACHINE.
  3. Humble Narrator

    Humble Narrator

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    Tastiest of ironies

    When Gates was doing all the paperwork necessary for building that house, the paper load was so extreme that his town needed a document management system. MS offered all their goodies for free, but the town elected to go with a Linux based system due to lower TCO and lower consulting fees upfront. I love it.

    Beep9: I stand most humbly and abjectly corrected.
  4. SkellyChamp

    SkellyChamp

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    I hit the power button.
    A desk top appears.
    I can access the internet
    I can access a word processing program.
    I can access games.
    I can send and receive messages and notes with my friends, relatives, colleagues, associates, etc.
    I care not for acronyms or whether Bill Gates in his 40000sq ft house is cornering the market.
    I wouldn't notice the differences between one operating system (excuse me OS) or the next.

    I miss transistor radios and a world without Playstation and Nintendo. Can't get my kids out of the house when you couldn't keep me in the house. An easier world yes - a better world I think not.
  5. beep9

    beep9

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    Re: OK, let's sort this out...

    Warning: Bloody long post. With only one tiny, irrelevant provider reference:

    [Background info: I worked for DRI at the time they got eaten by Novell (who later, as was common for that company, regurgitated them)]. That was much after all of the following happened.

    PC-DOS was based on MS-DOS, with absolutely trivial differences. However, at the time that IBM was selling PC-DOS, it was also selling PSYS and CPM/86.

    DR-DOS was very loosely based on the original CPM/86 code, but little of CPM/86 still existed in the end product (which you can verify... it's now open source), and absolutely _NONE_ of Kildall's code still existed (Languages, platforms, etc). Just to chain up the very beginning of all of this, Gary Kildall was at Monterey's (Uh-oh: Ambiguity... it was either DLI or NPG... I'll bet hard on NPG, though) Naval Post-grad school, and he was contracted by Intel (who?) to write a P/LM compiler for something called an 8080 (which no one ever really used for long, switching to Zilog's Z80 instead... PCHL). To test his compiler, he did what any neurotic geek would do: He wrote an operating system (well, the joke was that he wrote half of an OS, and left the other half as an exercise for the student). The File system was kind of fun for the times (1975... I was just a boy)

    CP/M was quite successful, as it basically had no competitors (no one really counts NDOS [Northstar DOS], PSYS [IBM liked it, but no one else did], or CROMIX (A UNIX clone running in that small a box was .... amusing [CROMIX was sold by CROMEMCO - or Crowther Memorial Commons, a Stanford Dining hall]).

    Bill Gates thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to have a BASIC interpreter for this OS?" He wrote it (in a hotel room in Phoenix(?) with Paul Allen. ObProviderRef: Who else was there?). It was a truly great hack, even if one never used it. He then started a small company to sell it. Then he wrote a very bad linker and assembler (MASM-80.) Then he wrote a bunch of other tools. Not great. Not bad.

    Years pass. IBM decides to do a PC. Makes lots of mistakes (8088? How brain dead could you get? And what gives with that half of a bus? On the other hand, you could already get tools and platforms for an S-100) Goes to Bill to buy development tools and (most importantly) BASIC. Puts newly purchased BASIC in ROM of PC (therein previewing what would be the differences between PC-DOS (until 2.0) and MS-DOS... MS-DOS didn't use, rely on, or acknowledge the BASIC in ROM.)

    What follows is the product of conjecture and fact... Kind of like an "Historical Novel". IBM then says to our friend Bill: "Now, what do you think about an OS?"
    Bill says, you mean, you've not talked to DRI yet? (Note that it really was DRI at this point [ Digital Research, Inc ], the company having changed from InterGalactic Digital Research, Inc with the non-release of CP/M 0.86.) So, [Fact] IBM makes an appointment to talk with Gary Kildall very soon. [/Fact] Rumor has it: I.) He (Gary) was too stoned to make the appointment; II.) He decided he wanted to go fly his new toy (and I wish to hell I could remember what it was... Beechcraft Baron?) III. Demons attacked Pacific Grove's Butterflies, and he had to fight off the demons and return the beautiful princess to her castle. Whatever.

    IBM calls up Bill, and says "Hmmmph. We still need an OS. We'll see you tomorrow" Now, Microsoft is still a tiny company. Can't tell you how many employee's they had, but it wasn't a campus, it wasn't a road, and manuals were done by daisywheels (that is not sexual innuendo) and bound in loose-leaf binders (ugly brown ones). I again am not sure, but I believe that most of the resources of the company were working on the CP/M card for Apple's. Microsoft was absolutely dwarfed by companies like MicroPro (WordStar), Ashton-Tate (Vulcan first, then dBase), and Software Arts (Visicalc).

    Bill and MS, being small, move quickly. He calls up SCP, hacks together a business deal to buy rights to qdos, (and later ignores some of the provisions of that deal, for which they did indeed got caught), and completely changes the direction of the company. Overnight. SCP is a retail operation which had hacked together an OS (sort of) for the 8086 S-100 boards, called qdos [Quick and Dirty Operating System]. It was not CP/M compatible: You did INT 21 instead of CALL 05 for syscalls... to say the least (the CP/M emulation jump was not in early versions of qdos, but I don't know if SCP or MicroSoft put it in). Also, there were no user areas on a disk (user areas were kind of like directories, except that there were exactly 16 of them, and they were called 0: ... 15: Oh, also, they were essentially pointless, but M/PM (Multi-user CP/M) needed them for protection, so CP/M got them later at 2.1). qdos and ms-dos had no PIP, no ERA, etc. Finally, and this is the big one, the File system for qdos and ms-dos was FAT based.

    When IBM comes back to Microsoft, MS sells a snow job (" Why, yes we DO have an OS, although still under development, and this is what it looks like").

    Someplace around here, I may still have a file comparing all of the versions of MS-DOS, but, other than 2.0 (which added the unix-y stuff like file handles and hierarchical directories), no-one really cares.

    Later, IBM wanted to go with OS/2 (which Microsoft used for development of Windows from Win/386 onward), and Microsoft liked Windows, which they'd started developing in 83 or so. Neither Window's nor OS/2 had hit the press as anything other than vapor, but MS and IBM decided to hate each other. At this point, MS was the underdog, BigBlue the scary monster, and tech people rooted for MS, wsb.

    DRI tried to save itself years later by enhancing CPM/86 (which had, again, been sold with the original IBM 5150. It cost $500. psys cost $300. PC-DOS cost $100, and PFS Perfect Writer came with it) by adding in a MS-DOS compatibility layer. Quite a nice one. They also worked for a while on a windows clone (stay away from Int 2A (or 2F?). Microsoft did some nasty stuff to kill the commercial prospects of all of those.

    Stuff I don't know: Sorcim wrote SuperCalc. Then Computer Associates sold SuperCalc. Was that the beginning of CA?

    With all this utterly useless knowledge swirling around my head, is it any wonder I have to see providers? Who else would listen to a really old guy? :)



    [Edited by beep9 on 07-24-2001 at 10:41 PM]
  6. wsb

    wsb

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    Techies have always hated MSFT for one reason or another, which is funny since I would think they would identify more with Gates (a fellow techie and actually a decent person) than someone like Jobs (a glorified salesman and a horse's ass to boot). The recent highly publicized antitrust suit and subsequent findings by the District Court have simply given them more ammo with which to convince non-techies of the evils of MSFT. I think many simply suffer from shadenfreude.

    At any rate, corporations aren't religous pursuits. If they were then Apple would have 90% market share as opposed to 4%. The corporation's job and responsibility to its shareholders is to commercialize products that have the greatest demand and that produce the greatest profit. In this regard, MSFT is the top in its field. The techie community knocks MSFT for developing subpar products and that may be correct when viewed from such a lofty perch. However, the average person (and herein lies the flaw in the DOJ's prosecution of MSFT) actually seems to like having his or her OS, browser, e-mail software, word processor and spread-sheet software integrated into one multi-media environment, as opposed to dealing with multiple products from multiple companies that will invariably conflict with one another. While I don't dispute that MSFT engaged in some anti-competitive behavior for which it should be punished and more closely policed, it is hard to deny that the company is delivering products with which the majority of consumers are satisfied and would prefer to have working in concert.

    --WSB
  7. thelastone

    thelastone

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    Get the latest version (i think its .92), its much more stable.

    last
  8. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    I actually use Mozilla (out of some lame idea that my many crashes will one day help to create a really good open source browser) but the thing crashes all the fucking time.
  9. thelastone

    thelastone

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    Don't like IE, but want a netscape interface?

    Hate to bring this back on topic ;)

    but if you dislike IE (for whatever reason) and would prefer to use the netscape 6 interface,

    try Mozilla.

    When netscape got bought by AOL, they needed to release a new version of Netscape to compete with IE. What they did was to take Mozilla (open source) and modified large chunks of it. What they ended up with is Netscape 6 which IMO is a steaming pile of horse manure.

    However the latest version of Mozilla is still available and untouched by thos AOL people. It runs just as fast as IE, although it does have a few bugs, its clean and user friendly. It has probably the same amount of problems IE has.

    It runs on almost every platform and is consistant throughout.

    just another option for those looking for one.

    last
  10. Candide

    Candide

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    Skelly - My Dad has the same library and loves that you do! :) He works for the film archives of New York and he is a movie expert - every weekend we watch old movies or listen to old music and have a critique, compare and contrast marathon - what a great teacher he is for me - myself a lover of movies as well as history and this old town. :) You know your stuff Skelly - A true connoisseur of the arts you are! I've actually watched those other movies you mentioned very recently (I have not begun to scratch the surface of my Dad's library) and I am happily looking forward to many hours of watching and discussing - very eye opening stuff and it makes me lonely for an era I missed :)

    Hotpuppy - You crack me up! :) Well, I'm convinced your from New York City :)


    H.N - You go guy! Some tech talent agent should sign you up - you know your stuff! :) I admire that - and I learn from you!

    Beep - thanks but my problem with MS is that I can use Linux whenever I want, but on a corporate level, like at my company and many other large corporations, MS is here to stay - I have no problem with that - I just wish the government would get a little uncorrupted and force MS to obey the law. They do break the law, I mean that is a fact. They just do not get punished for it nor are they made to stop - this isn't new - but it is depressing.
    And what Microphone? Are you sure you're not talking to "Kenneth" ? :)

    P.S. Mac provides no access to the operating system. Can't deal with a machine that I can't sink my hands into and fiddle with - whether it's a car, a computer or a TV set - I gotta be able to open it up and poke around :)

    [Edited by Candide on 07-23-2001 at 08:00 PM]
  11. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    (Memory returning)...

    You know, I've heard a few versions of that story. One has IBM never contacting Kendall. Another has them contacting him, and his wife (somehow) turning down the deal. Another actually has Kendall working with IBM for a while, but getting fed up with some of their beurocracies (especially the engineers assigned to 'handle' the project). I have never heard an account from IBM, MS, or Kendall (who now, unfortunately, is dead).
  12. Monk

    Monk

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    3,381
    Well, I have just one word for all of you MS haters: Mac!

    Didn't Netscape announce just a few weeks ago that they were getting out of the browser business altogether? I think they're going to concentrate on their corporate contracts only.

    As for Giuliani/Dinkins, I don't exactly see Rudy chaffeuring himself up to Yankee Stadium for photo ops. All of that is on the City's expense. And what would you call the free box-seat tickets George gives him in return for what he hopes will be a multi-billion dollar stadium? Some people think Giuliani will remembered as the law and order mayor. I think he'll be known as the baseball mayor -- after all, how many stadiums has he built at taxpayor expense so far?
  13. Humble Narrator

    Humble Narrator

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    OK, let's sort this out...

    In order of creation

    MS-DOS: This operating system was a cut-down implementation of the CP/M operating system designed for the 8088 family of computers. The original implementation, called QDOS (Quick-and-Dirty Operating System), was designed by Tim Patterson for Seattle Computer Products. This product was eventually licensed to Microsoft, and Microsoft then demonstrated the operating system to IBM who licensed it briefly. Eventually it was licensed to the clone makers to the delight and benefit of MS.

    PC-DOS: IBM's very own version of DOS that was NOT licensed from MS, but was not "100%" compliant with MS-DOS, thereby starting MS' tactic of becoming the de facto standard and then immediately adding their own proprietary elements making it virtually impossible to replicate in near-real time. This tactic has served them very well up to this day.

    DR-DOS: Kildall's entry (late) to the party that was always a superior product, but again, with MS always shifting the target and marketing the hell of it, they never caught. Oh, and maybe the bullying of hardware vendors might have had some impact as well. ;-)

    FYI, Gates suggested that IBM contact Digital Research, but they never did. Instead, they came back to him for a solution, which he bought from SCP for $50k!
  14. Hotpuppy

    Hotpuppy Mr.Butterworth

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    Please point me to the NYC playground where the word "shame" is ever uttered in any context :). I think you may have lost something in the translation, which might have gone something like this: " Do dat again asshole and I'll kick your ass so hard it'll kill ya whole family"
    take care HP( graduate of Alfred Loreto playgound, Morris Park, The Bronx)

    [Edited by Hotpuppy on 07-23-2001 at 03:24 PM]
  15. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    beep9 - Thanks for clarifying and reminding (it's been a long time since I looked at the DOS theft). From what I remember, not a small amound of the opriginal PCDOS code was written by Kendall (who received no benefit for it). Certainly a <i>very</i> strong argument could be made concerning the similarities between CP/M and PCDOS.

    But I don't hate MS. They wrote what is (in my mind) the only successful .0 release of an OS - that's pretty cool.
  16. beep9

    beep9

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    1.) NT (From it's origin on) was not developed on a VAX, nor at DEC. It is true that the lead architect (Cutler) and a number of the tech leads had been hired from DEC.







    2.) Re: Browsers. Granted, it will cost you 35 bucks or so, but has anyone tried opera? It's wicked fast, and it runs on all the OS's that I run(even the sparc linux box that serves here)



    3.) Candide, if you really don't like Microsoft, download or buy a linux or FreeBSD setup, and go. For a Brooklyn girl, I'll even walk over hand help you out (Now, speak slowly and clearly into the microphone).



    4.) As has paladin (I'll bet) I've gone up against Microsoft, and had my shirt handed to me. They're good, they're fast, and they know where they're going. Much like GM in the 20's - 60's, IBM in the 50's, etc. Microsoft hater's really need to remember what I'm told is a NYC Plaground Adage: "Take me once, shame on you; Take me twice, shame on me"



    5.) Someone way up above was confusing mDOS (the precursor of MS-DOS) with CP/M. They're not the same. Gary Kildall wanted to play more than he wanted IBM's business. Microsoft wanted the business, and took it.
  17. SkellyChamp

    SkellyChamp

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    Candide - Many of the fiilms from that era are based in New York and show the whole top hat and tails night life. It was a very popular script style in the depression when people were going to the movie to escape their lives (much like today eh). I love classic movies and have an extensive collection. I find the scripts and dialogue heads and shoulders above what we see on the screen now.

    BTW- A year later Gable hit it big with It Happened One Night with Claudette Colbert. One of the first screwball comedies. If you have a chance you should catch it. Also, My Man Godfrey with William Powell and Carole Lombard (who later became Mrs. Clark Gable before she died tragically in a plane crash in 1942).

    I could go on forever.
  18. Candide

    Candide

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    Skelly - Yes! Franchot Tone, I was told, always played those roles of the playboy who loses the girl in the end to the leading man (Clark Gable) And I thought Joan was pretty sexy in that movie with some decent muscle tone :) I also thought Clark Gable, with his perfect V torso in a suit was hot :) But the movie was amazingly melodramatic and I kept laughing at the "Sarah Bernhardt" facial expressions. I did not know that Joan was buried in New York State - thanks for filling me in. I also didn't know Joan was so capable of playing a tough but idealistic broad type. She was pretty good. What I loved about that movie was seeing New York during that era which I never knew...and feeling like I was there, the strip joints, the wise cracking dames and all the men wearing fedora hats (Franchot Tone wore a top hat and a tux to a strip joint and his gir friend wore a mink stole. Some guys near the stage were trying to touch the girls and there were no security or bouncers! And when they were raided the cops forced the girls to go without putting their street clothes on - and Franchot and his party hopped in the paddy wagon to go along to Night Court just for a laugh) They had night court back then! :) That was the end of prohibition. Everyone must have been wild. The atmosphere, the lack of modern devices, clothes and styles, the fast talk and the way the chorus girls in the movie looked slim and pretty like they still do today (Joan was slender with shapely arms and legs and a muscular back) It all just made me think and made me realize the history of this town is something I love and how I wish I could have experienced the city back then :)

    The three Stooges were a bonus - I didnt expect them - what a laugh riot!



    [Edited by Candide on 07-22-2001 at 04:21 PM]
  19. SkellyChamp

    SkellyChamp

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    Candidie

    FWIW - That fancy Park Avenue Boy was Franchot Tone (Mutiny on the Bounty) who less than 2 years later married Joan Crawford. And did you catch the Three Stooges in the movie.
    Joan was, in my opinion, more than a pretty fair dancer. She started out as a dancer which got her her big break and she quickly moved to the screen starting out in the silent era. She's buried up in Hartsdale, NY.
  20. Candide

    Candide

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    I think you're right. But people shouldn't forget...voters are too indifferent. Dinkins should have been ashamed to accept those tickets and Rudy shouldn't be holier- than-thou about sex joints.....I saw an old movie yesterday called "Dancing Lady", made in 1933 starring Clark Gable and Joan Crawford (who was a pretty good dancer) and Fred Astaire making his first appearance in a film. The film opens with the cops raiding a strip tease joint in Times Square. Some fancy Park Avenue boy is there slumming, falls in love with Joan Crawford and bails her out of jail. He follows her around and "subsidizes" her career in legitimate dancing. Her indecent crime was appearing on stage in a two piece lamay get-up which looked rather tame by today's standards. Boy has times and also Times Square changed a million times since then. What an eye opener that movie was :) Sexual Harassment was not a household word then.