On outing a bad client

Discussion in 'New York' started by freewilly, Jun 21, 2001.

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  1. Luciano

    Luciano

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    109
    My humble opinion

    Whatever needs to be done to ensure the safety of the women in this profession. This is not a harmful or predatory profession. Pimps, or those who coerce others into prostitution, are criminals. The women are remunerated companions when they choose to do what they do. That they should have to give up their rights to protection and legal succor is ludicrous.

    Do you remember the small town that was stopping people and impounding their money because "it had cocaine in the threads of the bills"? People naturally assumed they were guilty of drug offenses. Then an intelligent attorney pointed out that 60% of all bills in America have some cocaine in them. The point? LE does what it wants for many reasons. Sometimes, as in the case of violent or QL crimes they do so because of public demand. When it comes to overzealous prosecution of "prostitution" they do so because it is easy and safe.

    These women have the same right to protection as anyone else. Whether or not you agree with what they do they are humans and citizens and they should not have to be afraid.
  2. mercydancer

    mercydancer

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    755
    Here we go again. Allit takes is common sense and a little work. We the providers,whore, prostitutes,hookers,ladys of the night , or whatever you want to call us, need to take responsibility for ourselves.
    No the cop doesn't have to tell you he's a cop, yes he can literally f##k the daylights out of you and then arrest you, and you NEVER leave your wallet in sight of ANYONE. Duhhhh.

    The only time LE get very active is when someone makes a big stink of things or at election time so whoever can look good.


    Gentlemen, as a provider,hooker,whore,etc,etc..I really appreciate all the talk about our safety and such but, it just really boils down to each one of us taking the necessary precautions and not making things tooo obvious so that nosy neighbor who has no life doesn;t feel compelled to call the authorities.
  3. freewilly

    freewilly

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    56
    Since LE doesn't care about "bad" Johns, there needs to be some mechanism to stop them. Provider's sense of smell is a good start. Yet there have been too many reports on the various boards about such clients-and God knows how many incidents never get reported. To those who oppose outing, what do you suggest?

    The internet boards permit outing of bad providers also-things like cash and dash , overcharge, service failure. Would you permit accusations of robbery/pickpocketing, or diseases to appear?. The worst provider behavior doesn't get reported-in our hobbying endeavors who has not been in a bad situation, threatened with violence by a provider or their pimp. This happens to nice guys also.
  4. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    9,566
    jmp - I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were being serious. The people with their heads up their asses was not directed at anyone in particular.

    I'm sure we agree on most of this. My major point is that the only way to protect yourself from risk is to first accurately determine what that risk is. Too many commercial sex particpants do a horrible diservice to themselves by incorrectly assuming that there is some foolproof heuristic to avoiding LE. More often than not their tricks are simply a waste of time.
  5. John Blackthorne

    John Blackthorne

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    690
    another factor

    In most locales, there is a factor that keeps LE looking the other way..and it is economics. We are always worried about hotels and hotel staff and whet they think and what they will do if they think we are engaged in illegal sex.

    Guess what? Nothing. Their job is to make your stay pleasant, not a hassle. They laugh about it when they see a lady they know, they don't follow her to see what room she is in. They are not interested, LE is not interested. Except maybe to get her info for a date later. If someone complains, they have to act, but until then, they frankly don't care.

    And..the convention business in a city is crucial to the hotel industry in that city. If you give conventioneers a bad time...they don't come back, and their money does not come back. Every once in a while a city goes on a tear..like Chicago lately..but it is rare. They want in your face operations and occasionally go after an agency, but most metropolitan areas know that the adult industry is alive and well and look the other way because it is part of the mix. Better some net escorts than a host of streetwalkers.

    Discreet prostitution is and will always be a very low priority for LE. A little research by the client, some screening by the lady, risk is minimal. Not nonexistant, but not very high, either.

    And why worry about what it is called? I hated "this thing of ours" because of the pretentious mafia undertones. But "hobby" is unoffensive and causes me no trauma at all. In fact, it is accurate for many of us.

    JB
  6. Ozzy

    Ozzy

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    15,725
    there seems to be ONE major issue that wsb and i always agree upon...

    LE has much better things to do that scurry around the internet reading dirty stories that might or might not be true, like looking for 9th graders sending e-mail death threats to their fellow students. don't you think if LE cared one bit about what was going on, that the internet prostitution king pin (TBD) would have been pinched by now.....at least 50 times.

    besides theres probably plenty of local and state senators and congressmen logging on to tbd, jag and UG everyday...


    in over three years on these various boards and semi private boards and groups.....i've heard so many stories and rumors....except anything about anyone getting pinched by LE for posting on the boards. and very very little about girls getting caught for advertizing....unless they called LE on themselves.........don't laugh, it's happened.

    now guys geting caught by their employers for visiting porn type sites, is a totaly different subject.

    [Edited by Ozzy on 06-22-2001 at 05:51 PM]
  7. wsb

    wsb

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    523
    Just for clarity, in the vast majority of the US, **prostitution** is illegal. Discussing prostitution on TBD, JAG, EA, etc., is ***not*** illegal. Let's not confuse these two points. Additionally, LE is definitely aware of the existance of these boards. There are many boards and e-mail lists on this topic and they are certainly no secret to LE.

    I do agree that the enforcement of the law can differ from community-to-community, but that really isn't the point. The point is that providers and even some johns promote a number of tactics that purport to protect providers from LE and harmful johns (e.g., it's just companionship, don't pay until after, collecting tons of into...), and the truth is that they offer neither. The sooner providers come to this realization, the more likely they will be to avoid being busted and avoid johns that rip them off.

    I've heard a number of "wive's tales" on the boards concerning the types of sting operations that you describe, but I've never actually come across any tangible proof that such tactics are actually being employed by LE, since they would seem to be legally questionable and, quite frankly, far too sophisticated and requiring far too many resources for most police departments (relative to the crime in question). Most sting operations are conducted on the street and are generally pretty obvious, since they seek to obtain recorded evidence of the john agreeing to pay money for sex.


    --WSB
  8. Geezy Muldoon

    Geezy Muldoon Gold

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    2,351
    comments



    [Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 05:23 PM]
  9. jmp

    jmp

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    511
    First off, I was kidding when I made the companionship comment. It does amaze me the way some people believe that they can get by a run-in with LE if they jump through certain hoops.

    While prostitution is not legal in most parts of the US, different localities have different attitudes. Sometimes it has to do with the morality of the community, but more often it has to do with limited police resources. In my experience, most places will allow a lady/establishment to reach a certain level of visibility without causing trouble. If that weren't the case, there wouldn't be an escorts section of the yellow pages, nor would there be the ads in the back of the Village Voice. The question becomes where a community draws the line.

    Realistically speaking, if LE decided that they wanted to actively work to wipe out every bit of prostitution in NYC, it wouldn't take much effort for them to find these boards. I'm sure the powers that be have a fairly good idea of how much prostitution is going on in the city. They have chosen that other than the occassional visible bust (to keep those who don't know any better thinking that they're on top of things), they don't actively go after the providers.

    If they really focused their resources on it, how long do you think it would take LE to find TBD, JAG, UG, ***, etc.? Just look at how many incall establishments have been mentioned on this board within the last 24 hours. Other cities have made different decisions, but NYC seems to be resolved to allow at least a certain level of activity to continue.

    That's not to say that there are no risks of encountering LE when meeting an indie or using an agency for the first time. (Obviously the risks that the person you're meeting are really LE decline significantly after the first meeting.) But there are risks in any aspect of life. How many of us jaywalk on a regular basis? Drive on the highway? How about driving on the highway when not at your most alert? I know people who are afraid of flying because of the risks. It's all a question of which risks you feel comfortable exposing yourself to in life. I know people who like to jump out of airplanes for fun. They feel that their enjoyment outweighs the risks. Are they taking any more of a risk than an active hobbyist?

    Some of us engage in BBBJs and DATY, others prefer only covered activity. It all goes down to the risk levels one feels comfortable with. These are personal decisions, but they must be informed ones. Anyone who tells me they live a completely risk free life is most likely in denial. It's just a question of the risks you have chosen to take.
  10. wsb

    wsb

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    523
    EXCELLENT post JM! Ditto on the "hobby" thing as well. Your post is also a good response to people like Dave in Phoenix and the multitude of others like him who always seem completely mystified as to why prostitution isn't legalized in the US.

    --WSB
  11. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    9,566
    The sooner everyone involed in prostitution admits to themselves that what they are doing is illegal, the sooner they can actually develop methods to reduce the chance of being arrested. I think one of the major negatives of the online hobbyboard communities is that it fosters some sense that what we are all doing is somehow normal or accepted by the community (note: I am not making any arguments as to whether or not prostitution is ethical, this is a discussion of reality, not theory). The truth of the matter is that most of society sees this activity as pernicious, evil, an immoral. More than that, they've made it illegal. The attitude of a society determines the way that laws are enforced, and so because the view of prostitution ain't so hot, police have a lot of leeway in preventing it.

    Let's put it this way, if someone was caught molesting a bunch of kids, would there be a huge outcry in society if due process were not followed to the tee? I don't think so. Likewise (and of course to a much lesser extent) if cops strain legalities to put a bunch of prostitutes and johns in jail, I don't really think there's going to be a bunch of groups comming down on them.

    I think a lot of board posters really have their head up their asses when it comes to this. The sooner that we realize that dumb tricks (and believe me, if you think that arguing 'time for companionship', 'the officer fucked me', or 'I was just paying for a massage' is any better than my stupid are you a cop question you are almost always mistaken) won't protect us, the sooner we will all be a lot safer. There is no substitue for developing good instincts and following them.

    But, in the end, it's important to realize that one of the risks of what we're all engaging in is arrest, conviction, public humiliation, and a all the other shit that would rain down. If we don't like those risks then perhaps it's time for a different hobby)

    I can't tell you how much more I hate 'hobby' than 'this thing of ours'.
  12. Bill Furniture

    Bill Furniture Flounder

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    10,182
    Companionship?

    Yeah! That's the ticket!
  13. jmp

    jmp

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    511
    Come on, we all know the fee is just for companionship. We all just happen to be very charming guys.
  14. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,480
    I can assure you that justme was using this to poke fun at the previously discussed concept of avoiding LE by not collecting the fee up front, and the he is well aware of the facts.
  15. sigma089

    sigma089

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    61
    bigger myth than the tooth fairy

    justme--

    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If you mean this, then, with all due respect, you are 100% incorrect. Police in any jurisdiction in the USA are allowed to deceive, lie, and misrepresent themselves as part of doing the job. The only thing that is a no-no is to induce a citizen into committing an illeagal act that the citizen would not otherwise have done.(It's even ok for them to do this sort of inducement, but if the arrested party can prove it it is grounds for acquittal.) But lying about being LE is an everyday happening.
  16. justme

    justme <i>pop and click tainted</i> Vinyl ( is dead )

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    9,566
    Sure it works. And if you ask a cop, "Are you a cop?" he has to say yes or he breaks the law. Gosh, don't you know anything?
  17. Slinky Bender

    Slinky Bender The All Powerful Moderator

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    19,480
    WSB is 100% correct. It is a fallacy to think that not collecting the fee up front gives a provider any protection against LE. Just ask any of the "Johns" who have been arrested in sting operations if they ever got to the point where they handed any money over ( or, for that matter, any of the providers who have similarly been stung in Chicago and ?Denver? in the past year ).
  18. wsb

    wsb

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    523
    I think you'll find the answer to your question in the thread to which SB refers.

    Secondly, I know of no current tactic in use by providers, other than perhaps intuition and common sense, that "circumvent the LE issue".

    --WSB
  19. dicer5

    dicer5

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    61
    quick question. this statement is not meant to start an argument. But how does outing someone who does not pay and runs out hurt innocent johns. There are a certain percentage of women who do not collect money up front because that's how they circumvent the LE issue(so I've been told). Also, as a guy, you know before going into a session what the monetary fee will be. So, if someone has ripped off a woman, how does the outing of this person(probably would be false ID anyway) hurt the innocent John's. Just as guys write reviews negative reviews about providers, if a guy has done something wrong(meaning drastic), than so be it and let him be outed
  20. wsb

    wsb

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    523
    Why are you the champion of this cause???

    Have you really thought about this or are you just completely clueless???

    Why don't you do yourself a favour and tell your friends who are providers to COLLECT THE MONEY UP FRONT!!! That way we can all avoid this nonsense that does absolutely nothing except hurt the business of the people that you purport to help and victimize innocent johns.

    --WSB