on the wtc attacks

Discussion in 'New York' started by ramstein, Oct 1, 2001.

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  1. jras


  2. jras



    Cultural darwinism, yes, because some ideas and behaviors out-compete others and get passed on. Biological darwinism, unlikely, given the genetic connections of all semites.

  3. sod


    A little gasoline for the fire. . .

    Does anyone ever use Darwinism as an explanation for the current state of affairs in the world? I do, and am immediately labeled a racist. I haven't figured out yet whether or not I agree with that assessment.

    Just throwin' that out there for some reaction. Please leave "The Bell Curve" out of your responses, because it's been misinterpreted almost as frequently as the Koran.

    [Edited by sod on 10-08-2001 at 11:20 AM]
  4. beardedone


    Belgian Courts and Ariel Sharon

    Those courts investigate based on complaints from third parties. Basically, various anti-Israel groups spend lots of money and effort getting various international organizations to do things against Israel.

    The case against Sharon is a great example. Note that Sharon's crime is that he didn't stop the Christian Phalangists from massacreing Palestinians in Sabra and Shatile. In other words, Arabs Christians slaughtered Arab Muslims and a Jew got blamed.

    Compare him to, say, Hafez al Assad who killed 20,000 of his people in Hama the year before Sabra and Shatila. Oh, nobody bothered to go to Belgium to complain. Or say, Saddam Hussein who gassed his own people. Or any number of atrocities perpetrated on any number of innocents over the last few decades.

    By the way, did anyone listen to Osama Ben Laden? The complaint against Israel isn't its occupation of the West Bank-- Osama quite directly said that his followers were angry about the events of 80 years ago, the original Balfour Declaration allowing for a Jewish homeland. It's not Israel's behavior that drives these guys, its Israel's existance as the only non-Muslim state on "holy Muslim soil." That's why when Israel offered to give back virtually the entire West Bank and 1/2 of Jerusalem, Arafat said no.

    So the fact that some Belgian court is investigating means nothing as far as Sharon, it just means someone got a judge to say "ok, I'll look into it."
  5. JohnJ

    JohnJ Repentant Sinner



    I'm just pointing out people who the Belgian Courts are investigating under international laws.
  6. justme

    justme homo economicus


    In addition to Ariel Sharon, these have included: former Chilean President General Augusto Pinochet;

    Now you've stepped into the absurd. I mean if Pinochet were really such a horrible person who used terrorist methods that why would our always fair government have supported his ouster of the democratically elected socialist leadership of Allende? And why, to this day with the microscope of historical perspective to help us, would our government continue to block his return to Chile where he could be tried for committing these 'aledged' crimes on his own people?
  7. tomahawk9


    The experience of India's partition (creating Pakistan and Bangladesh) suggests that this solution is deadlier than its symptoms.
  8. tomahawk9


    Love it or leave it? Think the way I do or get out? Free speech for me but not for you? The American way?
  9. jras



    anti-semitism is about ideas, not genes. By the way, arabs are semites too ...

  10. jras


    strange brew

    Take a little inter-tribal, historical animosity among fuckin' peasants, draw some arbitrary boundaries and add a healthy dose of religious fundamentalism of any goddam stripe. Fast forward -- now throw in some transparent special interests, military-industrial-judeao-christian- islamic-hindu-complex lobbyists and lying, self-serving politicians (and a few more mindless, true-believing, infallible zealots). Natural combustion, again, again, forever, fuckin' amen.

  11. Geezy Muldoon

    Geezy Muldoon Gold


    That's basically what Blair said to the House of Commons: We have to seek justice by going after the persons responsible and seek larger justice by seeking to address the conditions which give rise to Islamic terrorist acts.

    Without being anti-semitic*, perhaps some form of Palestinian state or an expanded Jordan would be warranted to put an end to the Palestinian problem and the perpetual strife between Israel and its Islamic neighbors; provided, Israel's borders are guaranteed by all NATO countries, Russia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

    Then everybody could stop wasting money on military spending and emotional energy on paranoia and start producing wealth and higher living standards for everyone in the Mid-East regardless of their religion. Even the Irish are getting tired of bashing each other's skulls in. Clearly, it's time for something else to be done.

    Without meaning to squealch anyone's right to speak their minds, I am disappointed that there have been so many posts of late expressing intolerance and focusing on the lower animal pleasures of revenge fantasies, etc. Given that we are all of us little gods in our own right who flout society's rules concerning sexual behavior, I suppose that is, in a certain sense, to be expected.** I would hope, however, that as students of desire and its enormous futility, some further evolution of views may develop that are more progressive and less inimical to humanity's potential for greatness, pleasure and humor***.

    *My wife is half Jewish and our children a quarter Jewish and would probably have all qualified for Germany's ovens in WWII - so I hardly qualify as an anti-semite. Also my father always told me that certain of his maternal ancestors were French Jews. So again, I hardly qualify as an anti-semite in being willing to consider the establishment of a Palestinian state.

    **It may be, in fact, that a certain amount of ignorance, intolerance and insistence on having things your own way is part and parcel of the average commercial sex buyer's mental predisposition.

    ***Many less laughs here of late.
  12. JohnJ

    JohnJ Repentant Sinner


    That’s the way it should have read... I was a bit too quick typing my thoughts

    Ozzy your post didn't piss me off at all...
    I also like the way you try and draw attempted but very week parallels to equating my criticism of Israel with the innocence of Afghanistan and the USA as baby killers.

    So if I criticize Israel... I must therefore be Anti USA?

    Thank you for proving my point Ozzy...

    Nonetheless your logic on terrorism and its definition beguiles me. You obviously did not read my post nor think about it but rather quite rudimentarily responded.
    My points that I made are simply how I see things. I critiqued your posts and added my comments.

    I think though you may want to do some rethinking about bombing countries with former terrorist leaders because your beloved Israel would be on that list too... oh wait... has it escaped your memory that Ariel Sharon is being indicted by a Court in Brussels for his alleged war crimes in 1982 while he was Minister of Defense.

    The complaint against Sharon was first lodged with the Belgian Public Prosecutor's Office in June 2001. Ariel Sharon was Minister of Defense, with overall responsibility for the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), at the time of the 1982 massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps on the outskirts of Beirut. The IDF allowed the Lebanese Phalange militia to enter the camps where the killing of hundreds, mostly Palestinian refugees, continued for at least 30 hours. The complainants, a group of 23 Lebanese and Palestinians, had filed the case under Belgian legislation enacted in 1993 and 1999 which allows Belgian courts to prosecute foreigners for certain offences committed abroad, including genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

    The principle of universal jurisdiction permits the national courts of any state to try people accused of crimes under international law, including war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide as well as torture, extra judicial executions and "disappearances," regardless of the nationality of the alleged perpetrators or victims and regardless of where the crimes were committed.

    In 1983 the official Israeli Commission of Inquiry into the Events at the Refugee Camps in Beirut concluded that Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon had "disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by Phalangists... failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps...[and had not ordered] appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps." The commission recommended that "the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office." Ariel Sharon resigned from his position as Minister of Defense following publication of the Commission's report in 1983. In February 2001 Ariel Sharon was elected Prime Minister of Israel; he took office in March.
    A number of criminal complaints have been lodged with the Belgian courts against leaders and prominent members of past and present governments. In addition to Ariel Sharon, these have included: former Chilean President General Augusto Pinochet; former Speaker of Parliament and President of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hojjatoleslam Ali Akbar Rafsanjani; former Moroccan Minister of Interior Driss Basri; former Foreign Minister Abdoulaye Yerodia Ndombasi and several other government ministers of the Democratic Republic of the Congo; President Paul Kagame of Rwanda; former President Hissene Habre of Chad; and President Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

    Hey... oddly enough... Yasser Arafat isn't on that list but Ariel Sharon now is... go figure that one out...

    And what’s this...Something about all of a sudden I have friends on UG and Big Doggies that are now internet terrorists... geez Ozzy.... that’s really something...

    Ya caught me.... I'm on a mission.... yes... a “back channel” mission.... to wipe out...errrrrr ummm can you remind me what it is I'm masterminding?
    The only time I’ve ever heard anyone mention my name was in regards to an incident with a certain provider. She forwarded the email to me and I told her I would be more than happy to help her find out who it was that was threatening her. The email went on to say that this is "because of what you did to John J". I think it was quite obvious that the person had other issues. I was more than cordial with her and I have all the emails to back it up. I also consulted the APM immediately as this was a matter possibly for UG. Since that time I haven't given it a second thought. I always and still do wish her well. Ozzy there aint nothing on me about this because this is some battle between you and some other people that I don’t even know who nor do I want to know who. I have been a gentleman with all the providers and you and I know that to be the truth. So please don't go slinging the proverbial mud pie. Don’t go around making insinuations that I am involved or have friends with "internet terrorists” when you know that I have nothing to do with it. Because of my mentioning something about a provider that did something that was obviously wrong with no attempt to resolve, doesn't give anyone the right use her name or my name in those emails.

    If you think otherwise please feel free to ignore me. I still like ya; I still appreciate you coming down to the gatherings and your opinions on matters. It’s cool that we don't agree on certain things Oz. I still respect you though I try and repudiate your sociopolitical comments. I know you are trying to point out certain things as I am trying to mention things also. Please allow me the pleasure of a good discourse. Your taste in music however I have no idea... currently I'm a K-Rock junkie... with ties to some of the industrial/techno/hardcore/punk/indie stuff. I don't do country. Anytime, you would like to butt heads over a beer feel free to call me, unless of course you feel otherwise.

    As for Beep... you asked a simple question, I responded with some info, so please show me where or in which book or reference that its says otherwise. I apologize for referring to websites, I just hate writing something without showing where my thoughts come from. If those websites...links.. refrences are to be disputed then please feel free to show me where.

    The wall is indeed sacred to the Jewish religion. I am not saying otherwise. I feel it should be revered just like anyone elses religion should be revered. The wall is the base of Solomens Temple and this is my last post on the subject.

    John J
  13. Ozzy


    I just read what I posted, and it's pretty incoherent and disjointed

    it happens to make the most sense in the thread.

    and beep...

    thanks for making a point i was going to make. but you forgot to mention WHO actually did build that wall, and what was on top of it two thousand years ago.

    btw...i can post links to legitimate newsweb pages that say there's proof that aliens killed kennedy and that all the apollo moon landings were faked.

    and JJ.....this crap in what we NOW call the middle east has been going on for five thousand plus years before you or i were here......neither one of us is in any position to judge who is right and who is wrong. i'm just telling you what some people have done thats wrong and makes them terrorist and thats documented on someting other than some quacks website. i don't give a fuck if they all blew themselves up......as long as they keep it in their own back yards like they've done since before the bible was written until a few years ago.

    [Edited by ozzy on 10-05-2001 at 05:51 PM]
  14. beep9


    Re: Re: quiet question

    Well, I give up being civil. Holy fuck, you blithering idiot, does a link really make it true? The entire 'palestinian' effort is based on telling 'The Big Lie', not expecting to be believed, but to wait 30 years and then quote it.

    If so, then yes, I do kill christian children to make passover matzohs. Yum.

    By the way, You made an error a few posts ago. Chapter 12 of the handbook says to never refer to Jews, only refer to Zionists. Your bad.

    By the way, how does the 'tradition' synch with the numerous depictions, visual and verbal, of the temple, from 1900 years ago. Damn, all that Essenian crap in the dead sea scrolls must be a creation of the zionist conspiracy too.
  15. sod


    On the other hand . . .

    Part of what's great about this country is that you can say it sucks or the government is wrong, and nobody is forcing you to leave (or making you stay). Something like terrorism arises when people are unable to affect change (for better or worse) through the appropriate channels. The U.S. has been annointed the world's policeman, so we were bound to suffer the wrath of these frustrated people sooner or later. Someone clearly has to pay for what has happened. I think the goal should be to eliminate as many of the wrongdoers as possible while paying more attention to those who go about seeking change in the proper manner.

    I just read what I posted, and it's pretty incoherent and disjointed, but I'll stand by it. Maybe someone will agree with something in there.
  16. Phantom


    Don't you know that America is the great Satan? :rolleyes:

    I guess Satan is sending hundred of thousands of tons of flour just to fatten them up for the kill. :rolleyes:

    It really pisses me off people who live freely and very well in this country and who believe what America is to blame for eveything that goes wrong on the planet. Don't like this country, leave and I gladly buy you a one way ticket.

    [Edited by Phantom on 10-05-2001 at 04:29 PM]
  17. Ozzy


    and you know whatJJ....

    it's no surprise that a lot of your friends here on UG and big dog are basically terrorist on the internet boards. threatening people thru e-mails and back channel crap.

    you do know that they're doing it in your name. i can foward you and e-mail or 50 where they say this is for John J.

  18. Ozzy


    so JJ, you're saying that yassar arafat never headed the PLO or was involved with it in any way? cause they were/are a terrorist organization. no different than the IRA or hammas or the SLA or right to life clinic bombers..... makes no difference whether they're right or wrong. they're called terrorist because they use terror to get their points across. i personally think that some are right in their goals but wrong in how they try to obtain them. you can agree that palestine has rights to be a state, i never said *I* was for it or against it. but if the president is going to go after terrorist, then palestine if it were a state or country ect...it would be considered a terrorist supporter with a former terrorist leader running said country and thus should be on our things to bomb list.....that is if you believe what bush and his cabinet say about holding everyone (countries as well as the organization) responsible. are you gonna tell me that all those disco bombings and school bus bombings in the 70', 80's and 90's and the '72 olympics are all israels doing and and that their just framing the PLO? cause if so then why do they (the PLO) keep taking credit for it.

    btw JJ.....my first post pissed you off? i didn't even mention israel or palestine.....what gives....afghanistan innocent too or my tase in music? i bet the good old usa has been killing babies over there for years huh? maybe it was all the new york jews.

    [Edited by ozzy on 10-05-2001 at 04:21 PM]
  19. JohnJ

    JohnJ Repentant Sinner

    Re: quiet question

    As per the British Rulers of the area...from December 1947 thru June 1967, after bloody incidents with the Arabs, Jews were no longer able to approach the Wall.

    Jews were prevented for 19 years from even looking at the Wall from afar.

    Prior to 1947.......

    The Western Wall became a permanent feature in Jewish tradition about 1520, either as a result of the immigration of the Spanish exiles or in the wake of the Turkish conquest in 1518. Thenceforth all literary sources describe it as a place of assembly and prayer for Jews. According to a tradition transmitted by Moses Hafiz, it was the sultan Selim (Suleiman) the conqueror of Jerusalem who recovered the wall from underneath the dungheap which was hiding it and granted permission to the Jews to hold prayers there. No Muslim sources about Jerusalem bear any evidence of the Arab interest in the Western Wall. The nearby area became Muslim religious property at the end of 12th century, and from 1320 there is mention of the Moghrabi Quarter established there. Nevertheless, Jews were able to hold their prayers at the Wall undisturbed.

    These were taken from this link...

  20. Carl M

    Carl M Hanging by a thread

    I read the book- Carlos Hathcock tactics are now used in all Marine training facilities. I guess these guys are so highly trained anything is possible!