Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Rokin, Feb 10, 2006.
I do to.
And therein lies the dilemma, Rokin.
But hey, we're having a reasonable discourse on this controversial issue without rancor.
I consider that a plus.
Which comes first the chicken or the egg.
Israel cannot give the West Bank in exchange for hope.
The palestinians with their Hamas leaders have been clear that they want to get rid of Israel.
I agree with you absolutely.
But Israel must give much of the West Bank for any hope of this.
Israel can't really compromise until it knows that it is getting something real and tangible in return, a promise of peace and a removal of this eternal threat/hatred to get rid of Israel
I wouldn't bet on it. Military superiority and the massive support (politically, financially, etc) by the US, even if remains intact, won't be enough to prevent demographic defeat by the Arabs on the Jews.
There are forecasts, predicting the Arabs population becoming the majority in Israel (if Israel is keeping the west bank) within 2 to 3 decades.
If that happens, maybe they should take swimming lessons.
I agree with you on that. The Palestinians' biggest problem I have always said is that they will not bow to reality and realize two things:
(1) Israel isn't going anywhere.
(2) The Israelis offer them the best hope of developing a mixed agricultural and semi-technology based economy.
But I am sure half of all Palestinians will still think they can drive the Israelis into the sea.
Pharoah Rameses couldn't do it. What makes Hamas think it can?
Even if they gave the West Bank back, many many arabs still want to get rid of Israel. Fundamentalists who believe that their religion is the only proper religion, and that everyone else if a heathen and must die, are tough to reason with.
I believe both sides have their legitimate grievances.
However, the international community and the U.N. have both condemned the terrorism and suicide bombings on the part of the Palestinians and the occupation of the West Bank by the Israelis.
The Israelis should give it back. Then build their wall.
Some pro-Arabists might complain this is reminiscent of the Berlin Wall, but I believe the Israelis deserve to live in peace and security.
The only thing I would ask is that the wall does not divide Arab neighborhoods.
As long as the occupation continues, so will the rancor.
And the risk to ordinary Americans.
Well, by this logic, if the key to ending the "rage" is to end the repression, then we need to figure out the reason for the repression. Any chance the repression is a reaction to terrorism and murder? Perhaps if the terrorism and murder stopped, so would the repression (eventually)?
I generally would agree with you.
However, the repression of the Palestinians in the West Bank is still ongoing.
It's not in the past. So don't expect anyone to forget it and move on.
And that repression is the source of much of the rage. The cartoons are simply a way of venting this anger anew.
Everyone can go back in time and hold a grudge. The american indian got screwed, the irish were screwed, the blacks, the jews and on and on.
Someone mentioned on this or another thread that Jordan received a large amount of land after the war for palestine arabs.
Bottom line is that people have to look to the future and stop the hating. Energy must be direected to building a safe and prosperous and above all hopeful life for the children. Without hope there can never be peace. WIthout education, opportunity and law and order there can never be hope.
True 'dat. Allowing a more diversified curriculum will help change many minds.
But as long as Israel continues its 35-year old occupation of the West Bank, there will always be a fair amount of Arab outrage.
In the 1940's, whenever schoolteachers would brag about America being the land of the free and that everyone was equal, what answer do you think they had for someone who asked:
"Why are their separate schools and places for Negroes?"
Education is one thing. Reality is another.
Even though they are young, schoolchildren over 11 can figure out when things don't add up.
By teaching kids to think, Eqypt is helping solve the problem. Tolerance of other religions can only happen in that world when the kids are taught at an early age to use ther brains and not to be robots. I heard years ago about a program in whcih Israel helped Egypt with new and modern irrigation techniques whcih allowed them to farm previously arid land. I hope that Egypt and Israel together can pave the way to greater understanding.
It pains me that the media does not expose the outright race and religious hatred taught in these Muslim schools.
That Jews have horns and drink children's blood. That any Black is inferior unless they have come to know Allah.
I'm not saying every school teaches that.
But when articles including such nonsense appear in daily and weekly papers, what is one to think?
the mullahs will be in a tizzy over that one
send em some school vouchers
Recent article off the web that gives hope to solving the problem of fundamentalism:
In Egyptian schools, a push for critical thinking
By Sarah Gauch, Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor Thu Feb 9, 3:00 AM ET
CAIRO - Here in the sunny corridors of King Fahd Modern Language School, primary school students sit in rows reviewing the science midterms they just took.
The finale to nine days of test-taking that covered 13 subjects, these tests will account for half their yearly grade. The year-end exams will count for the other half.
But such ordeals may soon be a thing of the past as Egypt begins reforming a pedagogy based on rote memorization and test-based grading systems. Starting this school year, exams will together make up only half of the youngest primary students' yearly grades - the other half will come from activities like drawing, music, and acting.
"The door for human development and improving competitiveness is education," says Hossam Badrawy, the education committee chair of Egypt's ruling party. "The core of tolerance and democracy is education. This is the most important way to change the life of this country."
The reform program, which began in 2001, allows boards of trustees made up of parents, teachers, and at-large community members to share in decisionmaking. It also seeks to build more schools and improve curricula, testing methods, and teacher performance. The new methods also incorporate critical-thinking skills.
The changes are intended to address the needs of a rapidly growing population of 70 million people. Due to a lack of teachers, there are as many as 70 students to a class in some public schools.
A major component of Egypt's educational reform is a pilot school program also begun in 2001 with funding and technical assistance from the United States Agency for International Development. The program has become so successful that it expanded last year to 245 schools from 30.
The idea behind the initiative is to createmodel schools for the Egyptian government to imitate. Teaching regimens in the model schools encourage debate and problem-solving, and train teachers to engage students.
Some experts say a modern education that promotes critical thinking may support democracy initiatives in the region. The UN's 2003 Arab Human Development Report argues that schools in the region breed submission rather than critical thought.
Young people who learn by rote, say some education experts, are more easily manipulated and indoctrinated. Under an improved education system, students will learn tolerance and open-mindedness, some say. But others argue that tempering religious extremism is more complicated.
"So much is involved in the problem of preventing extremism," says one foreign development agency expert, who was not authorized to speak on the record. "It's not just a question of stopping rote memorization in schools."
But regardless of the ideological gains, improving the Arab world's educational systems is likely to play a major role in the region's long-term economic development by better preparing students for the globalized marketplace.
A number of other Arab countries have also begun reforming their troubled education systems. In Qatar, more than two dozen recently opened schools will follow a more modern curriculum that encourages active learning, asking questions, and problem solving. Tunisia and Jordan are also slowly instituting reforms with an aim toward increasing enrollment and offering more information technology training.
But effecting change can be a cumbersome process. Despite the increasing involvement of boards of trustees, Egypt's highly centralized educational system is still largely run by the Ministry of Education, many experts say.
Dr. Badrawy, who helped to create the blueprint for the government's present program, urges education authorities to move faster with reform.
He is calling for 1,000 new model schools, rather than the current 245. Badrawy says Egypt will need more than 10,000 new schools in the next decade to keep up with population growth. Meanwhile, Egyptian officials ask for patience.
"Education reform won't become apparent immediately," says Ibrahim Saad, technical adviser to the Ministry of Education. "We have a very ambitious plan, but it will take one to two years for it to really show."
The only way to stop terrorism long term is to change the thinking processes of the children through education. These type of programs must be supported and it is great to see that the US is helping.
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