The Time Has Come The Walrus Said

Discussion in 'New York' started by buddyyy, Nov 1, 2001.

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  1. Left_the_scene

    Left_the_scene

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    318
    No, she is no longer a providor.

    She and I still SEE, speak with, or even have over for coffee friends who happen to still be providors from time to time. <grin>

    My involvement with providors was never soley about sex. At times sex was only the tiniest part of it in fact.

    [Edited by left_the_scene on 11-02-2001 at 02:58 PM]
  2. mij317

    mij317

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    106
    Left the scene: Fair enough. Points taken.

    Out of curiosity and certainly do not mean to offend, but does she still work as a provider? Do you still see other providers?
  3. Left_the_scene

    Left_the_scene

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    318
    A few points:

    1) More than a few "Johns" become real friends with some of the hookers.

    2) Such folks who defend hookers are not always doing it just to garner favor - many actually care.

    3) One such hooker that I had become friends with is now my wife.

    4) It's not just a hobby for a lot of us.

    [Edited by left_the_scene on 11-02-2001 at 12:06 PM]
  4. mij317

    mij317

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    106
    Buddyyy says: "And I'm not trying to be critical, nor do I think that it is my place to judge."

    Buddyyy ends his post: "Denial is a river."

    If you are not interested in judging someone you do not know and have never met, then why would say that I am in denial? Perhaps because it is easier to judge people you will never meet behind the anonymity of a message board. Truth is, both of your posts in this thread can be considered sanctimonious. Doesn't really bother me, but lets be honest.

    I am not backpedaling and you have twisted my words to advance your agenda by saying that I said that I "attempt to redefine reality as being solely those experiences you have with those people you have chosen to define as closest to you. "

    Actually, what I said was "The point is that I don't take my business relationships as seriously as those relationships with people I hold dear in my heart (family and very close friends) for, although they enrich my life, I can live without my business and I can live without this hobby. I can start a new business and a new hobby if need be." Buddyyy, I think you would be hardpressed to find anyone here who does not believe that those they love enrich their lives on an emotional level more than their gardeners, hookers, lawyers, etc.

    Please, if you attempt to deconstruct my post to advance your agenda, I would at least appreciate your doing so with proper logic and reason.

    Having said the above, for you to understand the tone of my post that you quoted from another thread about a provider to remain nameless, it is critical that you understand that several times on this board I have tried to remind people that this is simply a hobby, a minivacation and a break from reality. While I have often seen "white knights" on these boards, I can't think of very many legitimate reasons to defend the honor of a hooker. I believe that most johns that do so are attempting to win some sort of favor from the hooker by defending her and and simultaneously attacking fellow johns. UG is here, among other things, to educate us as consumers and provide a community forum for us to discuss relevant issues to the hobby. Its not here to curry the favor of hookers by attacking other members.

    Bottom line number 1: I submit that some johns take this hobby much too seriously and to do so can be detrimental. This is a hobby, the important things in life are, among other things of course, your loved ones, family and friends, etc.

    Bottom line number 2: Don't risk your own inner peace to protect a hooker.

    Now buddyyy, go twist someone else's posts to advance your little agenda before you get spanked like the little bitch you are. (LOL, just kidding).
  5. candie

    candie

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    1,614
    Hey I am no hooker buddyyy,,,kisses..

    sincerely,
    call girl ;)
  6. buddyyy

    buddyyy

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    2,064
    Breaks From Realiy

    I wasn't quite sure what to do about the attribution. I used your quote (mij317) because it was a fairly tame example of the point I was trying to make, but still I realized that what I was saying was critical and I did not want anyone to think that I was singling you out.

    And I'm not trying to be critical, nor do I think that it is my place to judge. Nor does it really make any difference what I say or what after discussion we may agree is in fact the truth. The truth is the truth and doesn’t really care whether we believe it or not when it bites us in the ass. But it does seem to me that frequently we interact with each other in ways that are very likely to result in unnecessary pain.

    My point was not that you had, or should have, a low self-esteem. To the contrary, there is no reason why our activities should be cause for any loss of self-esteem. It would seem that, at a minimum, as you point out, these interactions are not dissimilar to other business transactions and as JRAS points out when he writes “getting personal means getting human” they have the potential to be much more than just a business transaction.

    But it is hard to deny that the slang expressions have pejorative connotations. I don’t think your clients would be particularly pleased if you started referring to them as johns.

    It is hard to deny that an implicit assumption behind the way in which much of what is posted is expressed is that what we do is less noble than other experiences one may have in life. And I just don’t find any basis in fact for that feeling.

    I also have to question whether you not back peddling a little when you attempt to redefine your reality as being solely those experiences you have with those people you have chosen to define as closest to you. Do you have a close friend, a trusted doctor, or know an artist whose work you admire and respect. Are these people part of your reality? Or do you only visit them when you are on vacation?

    Sometimes some of the most difficult things to see are those things that are closest to us.

    Or as they say about people’s perceptions about stocks and the stock market (if you want to meet some real whores I’ll introduce you to some of the folks who work for the major investment banks – you have to admit that it is tough to deny those ugly connotations <gg>): Denial is a river.
  7. mij317

    mij317

    Messages:
    106
    Thanks for the attribution jras.

    I said: “This hobby is exactly that, a hobby. My encounters with hookers (call them what they are for I know I am a john) are minivacations and breaks from my reality. Nothing more and nothing less.”

    Now if I said "My business is exactly that, a business. My encounters with suppliers (call them what they are for I know that I am a customer (in this context much akin to the use of the word john) are work and necessary to my reality. Nothing more and nothing less." would buddyyyy chastize me for not dealing with my suppliers on a human level or question my beliefs, morals, or my relationship to the law and society.

    The hobby, among other things, is pay for play. Of course, you can make personal relationships but we should not forget that these are business transactions, as is dealing with business suppliers.

    The fact that a hooker or supplier is particularly adept at their profession and they voluntarily chose their profession in part because of their superior interpersonal skills is of no consequence. The point is that I don't take my business relationships as seriously as those relationships with people I hold dear in my heart (family and very close friends) for, although they enrich my life, I can live without my business and I can live without this hobby. I can start a new business and a new hobby if need be.

    I do not dehumanize myself or the pro by transacting business. These are bargained for exchanges of mutual benefit to both parties and I think it an overgeneralization to say that people who hobby have a low self worth.



    [Edited by mij317 on 11-01-2001 at 07:01 PM]
  8. jras

    jras

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    3,149
    I respect you

    ... now blow me! just kidding

    It's bad form to quote something without attribution (mij317). But I agree with one thing you implied:

    getting personal means getting human

    If a lady reveals her humanity, I can usually handle it and it makes the sexual connection qualitatively different than humping an inflatable doll (not that I would know) or android (no experience there either/yet).

    jras
  9. buddyyy

    buddyyy

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    2,064
    It is very sad that while most of the participants on this board have made the decision to violate the laws which our society has concerning engaging in relationships that explicitly involve sex and money, that there has been little questioning or rejection of the values and beliefs upon which those laws are based.

    That this is the case can be seen in many of the posts. Just one example, and by no means one of the more egregious is this excerpt from a recent post, “This hobby is exactly that, a hobby. My encounters with hookers (call them what they are for I know I am a john) are minivacations and breaks from my reality. Nothing more and nothing less.”

    What seems sad is that the people who are involved in this activity, client and professional, are accepting a burden of guilt and poor self worth, and in the process dehumanizing and causing unnecessary pain for themselves and the people with whom they participate in these activities.

    Not everything society has told us is correct. In fact not everything we individually believe is true is true – regardless of how true we happen to believe it is. The unquestioning confidence that we each seem to have with regards to our own beliefs and morality is not based on the validity of those beliefs but rather upon the way in which our society has programmed us to believe them from a very young age.

    Can’t people even imagine a world in which people who were particularly skilled in providing sexual gratification did so as a career choice, and the people who derived pleasure as a result of availing themselves of those skills really appreciated and respected those people who provided them with that fulfillment?

    Is it really necessary that any one of us ever forget that we, and the people with whom we have relationships, are human beings deserving of respect and dignity?